LP-fortellinger - Norwegian website sharing information and experiences about Lightning Process - now available in English

Lilas said:
Good God, but wouldn't there be a group of lawyers who, by pro bono, would take charge a class action against these LP instructors and the Norwegian Labor and Welfare Administration ? It seems to me that the seriousness of the damage suffered by these many people amply justifies it. The testimonies are numerous and overwhelming.
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I doubt there is a basis against the LP organization itself, scams are not technically illegal unless they fit a narrow definition of fraud. They take great pains to not claim medical advice, but that falls appart when medical professionals actually promote it and they explicitly force their way to make it official medical recommendation.

The medical authorities, however, are in complete dereliction of their duties, and probably violate many laws and regulations as well. But given how widespread this has been in Norway, it's basically taking on the government, not an easy task to accomplish while the fairy tales are popular.
 
Lilas said:
Good God, but wouldn't there be a group of lawyers who, by pro bono, would take charge a class action against these LP instructors and the Norwegian Labor and Welfare Administration ? It seems to me that the seriousness of the damage suffered by these many people amply justifies it. The testimonies are numerous and overwhelming.
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Wyller, and I think a few more GP's in Norway, have been accused of misconduct for promoting LP to patients. Nothing has been done about it, and Wyller has used this as part of the "angry pwME-activist" narrative.
 
OK so the not being able to tell anyone about what it involves. 'having to sign about not telling anyone how it worked'.

How is that enforceable - there are a few reasons for confidentiality agreements and the main excuse is 'competitive information/intelligence'. If it were unique then it could be patented surely. It's not like watching a private screening of a film and spoilers being an issue.

there are many other reasons people use confidentiality agreements (and the reason for it is normally part of it if you know what I mean) but they tend to come as part of legal settlements don't they?

Does this context even hold up? What could they actually do? It's not like getting kicked out of the freemasons if you give away the handshake or having to pay back a settlement so what are they holding over people? I'm guessing they probably can't tell us that either..
 
rvallee said:
Yeah this 100% describes a cult. Zero difference between this and gay conversion therapy. It's a sign of a failure that's been normalized for a long time that there are physicians supporting this nonsense, rot that's eaten away at the whole foundations. Compared to this, a judge straight up demanding a bribe is almost acceptable, in terms of being completely derelict in the aims of the profession.

Also: there absolutely need to be civil lawsuits for everyone scammed by this to be reimbursed in full. It doesn't amount to anything compared to the primary losses but this is necessary moving forward.
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Agree that hitting them financially is the way forward, and at the very least removing the money that they made from forcing people through something that didn't help and giving it back seems a way to do this. Otherwise it is just used to fund conning the next persons.

And that medics sending people off to something like this is no better than suggesting they sign up to a pyramidy scheme of another kind and should be viewed as such. But then I guess that is part of the inner workings they try and conceal.

Therapy :mad: Love the fact that today things designed to do massive psychological (and the rest) self-harm isn't recognised as that by all, nevermind being allowed to call itself a therapy. Then I looked up the definition "treatment intended to heal a disorder or illness", so that's all right then based on the law of good intentions working out so often.
 
rvallee said:
Also it's well-known that most diets fail and motivation has little to do with it. So this is similar to Fauci admonishing the ME community in the 80's for saying there's nothing wrong with a psychiatric disease, even people with peptic ulcers don't mind (they famously minded and his premise was completely wrong given ulcers' famed status as the quintessential psychosomatic disorder).
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But Fauci is on record now saying that ME/CFS is actually serious and biological etc. ?

As long as I've got that right, then his past almost makes this more powerful - I'm guessing it is too much for those who change in this direction to explain how/what must have been behind their presumptions in the first place?
 
Lilas said:
Good God, but wouldn't there be a group of lawyers who, by pro bono, would take charge a class action against these LP instructors and the Norwegian Labor and Welfare Administration ? It seems to me that the seriousness of the damage suffered by these many people amply justifies it. The testimonies are numerous and overwhelming.
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Yep, I think it needs that - followed by some sort of PPI or bank charges style follow-up in order that it properly catches everyone by reducing the barriers. How was the PPI thing got to that point? Are there other easier examples?

I'm also astounded by how many Multilevel marketing schemes there are about/prevalence in general - friends who you just would never have dreamed would get into those sort of thing were part of the Aloe Vera thing a few years ago, which seemed to be that, and seem pretty changed beyond what you'd expect from normal age/life stuff if you know what I mean. What was stranger was how many other friends went along to the 'party' things.
 
Snowdrop said:
Given the coercive aspects involved children need urgent protecting.

Given that and the delusional aspects being told not to believe what is real I think one might justifiably consider mental health investigations of LP practitioners.

There are real public health issues in the mental health sector that are not being addressed let alone considered.

And I confess I don't think that mental health services anywhere are really up to the task.

It's a sad state of affairs that have real social consequences.
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Indeed, it certainly would present better value for scarce resources to target at conditions/behaviour that causes harm to others given that for one person treated it could reduce the illness/issues/harm caused in however many other people.
 
Midnattsol said:
Wyller, and I think a few more GP's in Norway, have been accused of misconduct for promoting LP to patients. Nothing has been done about it, and Wyller has used this as part of the "angry pwME-activist" narrative.
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I'm sincerely so sorry to hear that ! :( I had no intention of pretending to know exactly the way forward, it is the aggrieved Norwegians themselves who are best placed to say so.

I just read the blog " A Messiah in the Norwegian healthcare system ? " written by Nina E. Steinkopf * . Government, medical profession and public opinion have been caught in the cobweb of the Lightning Process for years in Norway. You are fighting against a real Goliath (giant)... The website on title of this thread is nevertheless a beacon of hope, people gather to dare to denounce the abuse they have suffered. I am wholeheartedly with them and can only encourage them to persevere.

* https://melivet-com.translate.goog/...lsevesen/?_x_tr_sl=no&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr
 
bobbler said:
OK so the not being able to tell anyone about what it involves. 'having to sign about not telling anyone how it worked'.

How is that enforceable - there are a few reasons for confidentiality agreements and the main excuse is 'competitive information/intelligence'. If it were unique then it could be patented surely. It's not like watching a private screening of a film and spoilers being an issue.

there are many other reasons people use confidentiality agreements (and the reason for it is normally part of it if you know what I mean) but they tend to come as part of legal settlements don't they?

Does this context even hold up? What could they actually do? It's not like getting kicked out of the freemasons if you give away the handshake or having to pay back a settlement so what are they holding over people? I'm guessing they probably can't tell us that either..
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They're just told not to tell anyone. There is nothing they can do about it if someone doesn't care. It's not enforceable in any way.

Basically it has as much legal weight as this:

mSHi8.jpeg
 
Peter Trewhitt said:
Presumably the LP folk could sue participants revealing the course contents in a civil breach of contract case, though presumably it would not be good PR.
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Now that would make a very nice Streisand effect. Maybe in desperation they may be foolish enough to do this, we can always hope.

It's one thing for a pseudoscience MLM/cult to scam people, but there is a cultural and political environment in Norway that has essentially forced many to participate, in some cases a requirement for private insurance, disability or as the only remaining option by a GP. This changes the ethics massively, but it places the blame entirely on authorities. Having to maintain secrecy about a scam in which participation was coerced by government policy is blatantly invalid, unless the government simply doubles down on abusing the patient community.
 
ME is an illness which could almost have been designed for these charlatans to target. The delayed nature of payback for physical exertion gives them just the right window of time to operate their one-off 3-day course and claim success, then blame the mark for anything which happens afterwards. The Lightning Process is dependent on illnesses like ME, they couldn't create their illusion with most others. So without us they are nothing.

This is the extreme end of "psychological" therapies, and illustrates the problems with many of the others which are incorrectly marketed and applied to us.

I wonder if the Cult Information Centre would be interested?

https://cultinformation.org.uk/

A brainwashing cult which is doing its best with various degrees of success to infiltrate medicine and government. I'm sure the CIC would recognise many of the LP's features immediately.
 
I agree ME is especially vulnerable to this sort of method because of delayed PEM.

It's also vulnerable because of the vagueness of some ME/CFS diagnostic criteria which don't require PEM, and can overlap things like burnout and depression where people feel fatigued and unwell, but don't have a physiological reason against increasing activity.

This means some individuals with non-PEM ME or CFS, diagnosed either by doctors or self diagnosed, may find the process gives them the excitement and positive adrenaline rush participants describe without the negative outcomes of multiple crashes and deterioration. I can imagine that some without PEM may find it helpful in some way, at least temporarily as seems to be the case with some less cult like positive thinking therapies. So these individuals without PEM may not see the harm they are doing when they publicise their 'recovery' and become trainers.

It is also a pyramid selling scheme, with those who are willing to pay out more money to qualify as LP trainers getting the chance to earn money from brainwashing more people. That's another cult like aspect with new initiates being expected to recruit more to the cult, and bring in more money for the founders.

Cutting people off from others with ME/CFS, and even from reading any information about ME/CFS, and from anything to do with their lives when they were 'doing ME' and getting them to lie to friends and family that they have recovered, is also cult like.

I suspect Parker, when designing all aspects of the LP process didn't just look to therapies that would be most persuasive, such as hypnotherapy and conversion therapy, but also to the methods of cults, such as 'love bombing', secrecy and cutting social ties, and also the methods of pyramid selling.

It's an incredibly toxic mix.
 
TiredSam said:
ME is an illness which could almost have been designed for these charlatans to target. The delayed nature of payback for physical exertion gives them just the right window of time to operate their one-off 3-day course and claim success, then blame the mark for anything which happens afterwards. The Lightning Process is dependent on illnesses like ME, they couldn't create their illusion with most others. So without us they are nothing.

This is the extreme end of "psychological" therapies, and illustrates the problems with many of the others which are incorrectly marketed and applied to us.

I wonder if the Cult Information Centre would be interested?

https://cultinformation.org.uk/

A brainwashing cult which is doing its best with various degrees of success to infiltrate medicine and government. I'm sure the CIC would recognise many of the LP's features immediately.
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The Cult Information Centre does seem interested in a specific type of cult called a "Therapy Cult", one of the characteristics of which is that they "Appear to offer association with a group giving courses in some kind of self improvement or self help technique or therapy." Source: https://cultinformation.org.uk/article_caring-for-cult-victims.html

They define a cult as having five characteristics, https://cultinformation.org.uk/question_what-is-a-cult.html:
  1. It uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain its members
  2. It forms an elitist totalitarian society.
  3. Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma.
  4. It believes the end justifies the means in order to solicit funds and recruit people.
  5. Its wealth does not benefit its members or society.
I don't know enough about the Lightning Process to tell if it meets those criteria, but it does seem to meet at least a few of them
 
Nina E. Steinkopf has written a good blog post where she provides several examples of LP being like a sect. There's an organisation helping people who have left closed religious communities called Hjelpekilden. They have identified 8 ways to recognise such communities, and Steinkopf has had a look at these points in light of LP. I hope the google translation does it justice.

google translation: Is the Lightning Process a sect?
 
Kalliope said:
Nina E. Steinkopf has written a good blog post where she provides several examples of LP being like a sect. There's an organisation helping people who have left closed religious communities called Hjelpekilden. They have identified 8 ways to recognise such communities, and Steinkopf has had a look at these points in light of LP. I hope the google translation does it justice.

google translation: Is the Lightning Process a sect?
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In another blog post by Nina E. Steinkopf, she writes about how this organisation, Hjelpekilden, once had invited an LP coach to give a lecture for its members. It did not go well.

Google translation of the minutes:

"It soon became apparent that her method, the Lightning Process, was very similar to the methods used in charismatic religious circles. This therefore led to major reactions from those of our participants who had a background in charisma, and the speaker chose to cancel her speech due to the participants' skepticism.

Despite the fact that there was an occasional sad atmosphere between the speaker and the audience, the ensuing class was very positive for the participants. We chose to talk about the different reactions we had, why some reacted, and how this can be a sign, among other things, that you have not finished processing your experiences, since several of the participants were surprised by their own reaction. In addition, we chose to look at various characteristics that characterize us as breakaways, including that our experiences can make us very skeptical of attempts at manipulation ……. "

google translation of the whole blog post: Seriously ill patients need to believe more, belive better!
 
There's another patient's story added since I last looked
https://lp-fortellinger.no/en/2022/02/24/adam-2/
I think if you want to get anyone who doesn't know about LP to read one patient's experience, this is a good one. It's quite long, but the detail is worth reading and he comments also on the situation in Norway with LP being promoted and researched.

It also strikes me, after reading Peter White's latest defence of PACE that this patient's story makes nonsense of White's claim that pwCFS are just deconditioned and afraid to exercise.
 
Thank you @Trish for your summary of this disturbing, and highly questionable "training".
That is to say the very least about this movement.

I wonder if anyone forced to sit upright for hours, or jumping around from spot to spot has fainted, or felt very lightheaded, and increasingly ill. I suspect this has been handled with denial and lectures to not do ME.

Has any LP "sales person" ever had to deal with a health emergency like someone fainting during the sessions? Do they have first aid training? Likely not, or they don't believe they will need it in their "work" with pwME.

The whole thing sounds like brainwashing and a contravention of human rights. Something governments should ban, not support.
 
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