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Jin’s three-needle acupuncture technique for chronic fatigue syndrome: a study protocol for a multicentre, randomized, controlled trial (2019)

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Sly Saint, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    • Wenjia Lin†,
    • Xin-lin Chen†,
    • Qi Chen,
    • Junmao Wen and
    • Xinghua Chen

    eta: trial registered in 2017;
    This trial is currently recruiting participants.

    eta2: this may be considered 'woo', but at least they are looking at actual biomedical 'markers' and acknowledge biomedical research results.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    andypants, DokaGirl, Hutan and 4 others like this.
  2. pteropus

    pteropus Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    #1 The use of the Chalder Fatigue Scale suggests they're studying general fatigue, not ME/CFS. (https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Chalder_fatigue_scale)

    Mainland China prefers FS-14 items. UK prefers FS-11 items (excludes items 5, 10 & 14). (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4730538/)

    #2 What is the purpose & timing for measuring "Plasma adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), plasma cortisol, and serum levels of IL-2 and IFN-γ" ?

    How can we know that the plasma changes are therapeutic, or causing harm to the patients ?

    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    andypants, DokaGirl and Wonko like this.
  3. Jaybee00

    Jaybee00 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    This is a journal for people to publish their experimental design with no result data? Strange. This should be the methods section of their results paper.

    But the real problem here is lack of comparison—they should compare Jin’s three needle technique with Chen’s four needle technique and most importantly with Zhang’s infamous “19 needles of death” technique.
    DokaGirl, shak8, EzzieD and 3 others like this.
  4. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    I think this advance publication of their plan for a trial not yet done, ie a protocol.

    I thought it said there would be a control group having 'basic accupuncture'. Calling it a single blinded trial I assume means the patients won't know which sort of acupuncture they are having.
    pteropus, Skycloud, DokaGirl and 3 others like this.
  5. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    If i understand correctly; poking holes in people is perceived to have therapeutic and/or medical value, for the patient? Poking more holes is perceived as better, at least by the practitioner, maybe they get paid per hole rather than by results?

    I suspect we may also need comparisons between different sizes of hole, at different temperatures and depths. Maybe eventually leading up to a trial between a 3 needle technique and a single pointy boulder of crushing death technique.
    Mij, DokaGirl, shak8 and 4 others like this.
  6. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Ahhh... a common mistake. It actually takes an irrational number of needles for it to work, and be a number between 5 and 8. Also the needles need to be made of moonrock and be blessed by the birth of a fawn in a water fountain on an odd day in April. 3 needles just won't cut it. So close.

    Give it a few trillion years of trial and error and you'll definitely randomly stumble on the solution. Either that or invest in research funding and do it in a few years.

    I'm gonna go ahead and be very bold here: a few years of well-funded research is less expensive and destructive than the trillions of years necessary to randomly find the solution to a complex problem while providing no help whatsoever to those suffering.

    I'm genuinely surprised we haven't see a urine therapy trial yet. Might as well while you're firmly on the pseudoscience train.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    pteropus, Mij, DokaGirl and 4 others like this.
  7. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Northen California
  8. Londinium

    Londinium Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    So funny I almost choked on my homeopathic latte.
    rvallee likes this.
  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    I guess that is where the coffee is so diluted with frothy milk that you cannot taste it.
    Keebird and Londinium like this.
  10. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    I've only skimmed this. I think acupuncture needs sensibly conducted and reported trials, it's a major treatment.
  11. Londinium

    Londinium Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Yep, but that just makes the caffeine hit more effective
    Trish likes this.

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