Effect of Pain Reprocessing Therapy vs Placebo and Usual Care for Patients With Chronic Back Pain an RCT, 2021, Asher, Gordon et al

We know a lot more about how the brain works, in terms of which parts of it control emotions, planning, HPA axis, autonomic nervous system, etc. and we also have fMRI which can show how these brain networks function in humans.

Again, you seem to miss the point. We do not know enough more to make useful predictions because there are crucial steps in neural function for which we have no quantitative analysis that would allow us to explain the difference between normality and disease.

I have previously mentioned what I call the fallacy of explaining illness with normal function. One of the strange things about not only psychology but even things like immunology is that people think that we can explain disease using normal physiology. If stress caused ME/CFS then everyone stressed would have ME/CFS. They don't. What we need for an explanation of MECFS is why it does not follow what we know about pathways and responses. None of the stuff in the review you posted tells us why people have ME/CFS symptoms because it is all based on what we know about normal physiology. It gives no clue as to where the deviation is.
 
I think between friends, doctors, and random people without ME or a similar chronic illness, there’s just such a massive amount of projection. It’s so easy to frame someone’s behavior as being due to personal failings instead of realizing that their life has additional dimensions they’ve never even considered.

People always judge others behavior in terms of how they think they would react in a certain situation. But I think that ignores what it would be like to experience the world as someone else, everyone has reasons for why they act like they do, even if in hindsight that person realizes they weren't good reasons.

For the person who hears and sees helicopters that only exist in their perception, it is so easy to write them off as crazy from our collective perspective. But if you were actually convinced that you were being hunted because you could see and hear things coming would it would be rational to run and hide in that moment? Is there any action anyone could take that is irrational from their own perspective?
 
@dundrum, I don’t understand what you mean by 'emotional attachment to pain'. Can you explain what you mean?

Check out the review I posted in another comment.
I'm sorry I don't have the capacity to search through all your comments to find an unnamed review and search it to find evidence that pwME have an 'emotional attachment to pain'. Can you help? Since you used the term you clearly have an idea of what you mean by it and its relevance to ME/CFS and/or chronic back pain.
 
Do you seriously believe that this study constitutes evidence of any kind? Have you read the critique in this thread?

Yes, I read the first page of critiques, and didn't find them very convincing. Did you? Calling the authors idiots and the treatment brainwashing. Pointing out changes in alcohol consumption, even those weren't statistically significant.
 
I'm sorry I don't have the capacity to search through all your comments to find an unnamed review and search it to find evidence that pwME have an 'emotional attachment to pain'. Can you help? Since you used the term you clearly have an idea of what you mean by it and its relevance to ME/CFS and/or chronic back pain.

Check one of my replies to you earlier today earlier in this thread. I never claimed pwME have an "emotional attachment to pain". I was simply explaining that pain in general has an emotional component. This isn't controversial or in doubt.
 
I never claimed pwME have an "emotional attachment to pain". I was simply explaining that pain in general has an emotional component.
You were claiming a lot more than pain having an emotional component.

To me 'emotional attachment' implies someone preferring to be in pain, or exaggerating their pain because it serves some purpose in their lives, or not wanting their pain to get better??? Why use the phrase 'emotional attachment to pain' with all the judgement that carries, if you mean something completely different?
 
Yes, I read the first page of critiques, and didn't find them very convincing. Did you? Calling the authors idiots and the treatment brainwashing. Pointing out changes in alcohol consumption, even those weren't statistically significant.
It seems like you missed the points about the combination of a lack of blinding and subjective outcome measures, the lack of a proper control group, how the intervention encourages a reframing of the topics of the subjective outcomes in a way that might influence the answers provided in other ways than changing the things they try to measure, etc.
 
@Trish this is where the talk about emotional attachment to pain started. This was a response to a reply that talked about ignoring pain.
It's not about ignoring pain. It's more about removing the emotional attachment to pain, distraction, stress reduction, etc. It's not directly under your control, but factors such as stress and emotions can upregulate the pain, and other mental factors can downregulate the pain. Having said that, dealing with chronic pain is notoriously difficult, and most of the techniques out there seem to be very hit and miss.
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No, it's more down to neuroscience, which is mapping out pain networks in the brain. One example are opioids, which work on the descending pain inhibitory system, but there are upregulation pathways as well, and there is also a significant emotional component to pain.
Now to the current conversation:
Check one of my replies to you earlier today earlier in this thread. I never claimed pwME have an "emotional attachment to pain". I was simply explaining that pain in general has an emotional component. This isn't controversial or in doubt.
Is this the one you mean, @dundrum ?
Emotional circuits in the brain are fundamental to brain processing. See: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8675872/
Jonathan’s response to the above:
This review illustrates perfectly the points I have been making. It tells us nothing useful about managing either back pain or ME/CFS. It is full of masses of detail of anatomy and a lot of complicated buzz word language but it does not provide us with a basis for reliable predictions.
@dundrum what do you mean when you say that pain has an emotional component?
 
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Yes, I read the first page of critiques, and didn't find them very convincing.

@dundrum, I'm a bit astonished that you only read the first page of the critique. You really need to read the whole thread before suggesting there are no arguments of value here.

For example, I think your faith in fMRI as evidence here is misplaced. On the forum, we have spent quite a lot of time looking at fMRI evidence and papers explaining the enormous uncertainties with fMRI data. Here's a response from a neuroscientist, copied from further up in the thread:

Its not very meaningful @Daisybell. They started with 16 regions of interest - that is, they went in with 16 chances of finding some sort of difference between their treatment and control groups on fMRI. That's a lot of second chances. They would have needed to correct for multiple comparisons, and I can't see anywhere where they've done this. The the p values they reported are large and none would survive even a gentle correction.

Even if the differences were reliable, it would still be almost impossible to interpret what they mean about mental functioning. Regions like the anterior midcingulate cortex and the anterior PFC have been associated with a lot of different tasks and situations, and we still don't fully understand what exact roles these regions play in supporting our overall cognitive function. There's a lot of hot disagreement in the literature. So, we're nowhere near the position of being able to say "Oh, yes, that reduced activation there in region X means that the person is doing Y". It just doesn't work like that.

You can't work backwards like that, you need to start by committing yourself to one or two carefully chosen predictions, and then see if they pan out. One reasonable prediction you could make is that this pain reprocessing therapy might lead to better top-down control over pain, so we should expect to see greater anterior PFC activity in response to evoked pain than in the control group (that's what a lot of placebo pain studies claim to have found), These researchers found the opposite. But they seem to think that whatever way the data goes, it somehow supports their conclusions - heads we win, tails you lose Obviously, that's just cheating :thumbsdown:
 
@dundrum, to save you the effort of reading the whole thread, before claiming that this study is a shining example of the evidence that you can reframe pain out of existence, here are some of the points that were made

1. It is interesting that Paul Garner chose to praise this particular study, as it has many of the flaws that are commonly seen in psychosomatic and alternative therapies research. NICE recently rated the outcomes of research with these flaws as being of low or very low quality.

2. Paul Garner says that "changing beliefs cured chronic back pain". By the end of the intervention, use of alcohol and opioids had increased in the group with the 'changing beliefs' treatment. They were still using, on average, over 4 times the amount of cannabis that the people in the control treatment cohort were using.

3. The researchers fervently believed in the 'changing beliefs' treatment. There was no state of equipoise.

4. The research was funded by the 'Study of the Therapeutic Encounter Foundation', which has a website that appears to have been hastily created and is not finished. The 'About Me' section says 'I am a paragraph. Click here to add your own text'. The research was also funded by the Psychophysiologic Disorders Society. Authors of the study went on to become consultants to United Health Group, a very large health care and health insurance company that has a substantial financial interest in reducing claims by people with chronic back pain.

5. Trial participants were recruited in a way that made it much more likely that they were favourably disposed to the idea that changing their beliefs would reduce their pain.

6. There were no reliable objective outcomes. It is a fundamental flaw in experimental design when unblinded treatments are combined with only subjective outcomes. There is a huge body of evidence showing that multiple biases combine to make the findings of such flawed studies worthless in assessing treatment effectiveness. This is particularly true when combined with participants who believe the treatment will work, and with researchers who are incentivised to find that the treatment works. It is even more true when the treatment involves learning to deny having pain and the outcome is the answer to the question 'so, how much pain do you have?'.

7. The people in the 'changing beliefs' group were more likely to be in full time employment prior to the treatment than the people in the other two treatment arms, so they had a better chance of reducing work hours in order to reduce pain. There is no report of hours worked by the end of the treatment, or at followup.

8. The study claims that gains were largely maintained at followup. However, the protocol suggested that participants in the control treatments would be given access to instruction in 'unlearning their pain'. Therefore, the followup results are actually largely uninterpretable.

8. The protocol suggested that participants would use an app to record opioid use for collection at follow-up timepoints because 'We are interested in medications most specifically because of the current opioid crisis, and the potential of the mind-body treatments under investigation here to reduce opioid use'. In an echo of the PACE researchers abandoning activity monitors supposedly because they were too burdensome for the trial participants, this study reported regarding measures of the use of alcohol, opioids and cannabis that 'these measures were not collected at follow-up timepoints to reduce the burden on patients'.

9. Multiple interpretations can be applied to fMRI data and, with a large number of variables, the analysis is particularly susceptible to cherry-picking and researcher bias.

10. Even if it really was true that chronic back pain can be cured by changing beliefs, that does not mean that other health conditions would respond in the same way.

11. It is particularly concerning that Paul Garner, who works in medical evidence analysis and has a role in Cochrane, seems to think that this study was useful. The problem created by the combination of unblinded treatments, a lack of objective outcomes and researcher bias is one that even students of experimental design should be able to identify.

The actual differences on the scales between the groups were actually quite small, around 1 point on a 1-10 point scale, for example. This is very consistent with a difference in questionnaire answering behaviour, rather than underlying health. (combined with a regression to the mean/natural recovery across all groups)

Most of the fMRI findings were not consistent - they'd have to be found for both the treatment-as-usual and 'open label placebo' groups for it to be valid.

There are no objective findings. The followup data is compromised by the controls having been offered other treatments after the initial treatment period.

So we are left with the subjective reports of pain over the last week on a scale from 1 to 10 immediately after 4 weeks of treatment.
At baseline, 151 adults (54% female; mean [SD] age, 41.1 [15.6] years) reported mean (SD) pain of low to moderate severity (mean [SD] pain intensity, 4.10 [1.26] of 10; mean [SD] disability, 23.34 [10.12] of 100) and mean (SD) pain duration of 10.0 (8.9) years.

Large group differences in pain were observed at posttreatment, with a mean (SD) pain score of 1.18 (1.24) in the PRT group, 2.84 (1.64) in the placebo group, and 3.13 (1.45) in the usual care group. Hedges g was −1.14 for PRT vs placebo and −1.74 for PRT vs usual care (P < .001).

Of 151 total participants, 33 of 50 participants (66%) randomized to PRT were pain-free or nearly pain-free at posttreatment (reporting a pain intensity score of 0 or 1 of 10), compared with 10 of 51 participants (20%) randomized to placebo and 5 of 50 participants (10%) randomized to usual care.
The question was 'how much pain did you have in the last week'? I'm not sure, dundrum, how you don't understand that if you put people through a course telling them 'your pain is just your brain sending off unnecessary signals, you are actually fine, ignore your pain, don't focus on it', then many of them will report a bit less pain even if there really isn't less pain. The differences between groups really is not so major. Combine that with the issue that the treatment group was on more pain masking substances than the control groups at the time of the assessment, and this study is looking extremely shaky as a basis for propping up the psychosomatic paradigm.

The placebo group was an open placebo group - they were told that placebos work even when the participants know they have been given a placebo. They watched videos telling them that. That may have convinced some of the participants. See how the reported mean pain score for that group was 2.84/10, less than the usual care group at 3.13/10? The scores reduced compared to the usual care group even though the placebo treatment was doing nothing.

It is very easy to influence how pain levels are reported. There is no evidence in this study that what was achieved with the 'pain reprocessing' was anything more than that.
 
On top of that, we found evidence that the researchers benefitted substantially from reporting what they reported, with a contract with an enormous health insurance and service provider. That, together with the backgrounds of the researchers, suggests that the researchers were not in a state of equipoise. The selective recruitment method means that the participants were probably mostly not in a state of equipoise either. It all adds up to considerable bias.
 
On top of that, we found evidence that the researchers benefitted substantially from reporting what they reported, with a contract with an enormous health insurance and service provider. That, together with the backgrounds of the researchers, suggests that the researchers were not in a state of equipoise. The selective recruitment method means that the participants were probably mostly not in a state of equipoise either. It all adds up to considerable bias.

The main point you make is that it is subjective, and yes it is, but that is the nature of pain. There are no objective measures. We have to believe the patients when they tell us they are in pain, and when they are in less pain. Yes, that is subject to bias. That doesn't mean the study is worthless. It is based on sound neuroscience, and they seemed to do everything they could to reduce bias (including having the placebo group).

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to explain how you would create a better trial.
 
That doesn't mean the study is worthless. It is based on sound neuroscience, and they seemed to do everything they could to reduce bias (including having the placebo group).

Yes it does, because you cannot relay on subjective measures in an open label study. This is absolutely basic methodology. And you cannot argue that because there seems to no way to get objective measures you are allowed to say that the subjective ones are reliable. Reliability is not negotiable in that way.

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to explain how you would create a better trial.
It is very tough doing studies in this area but there is no point doing studies that tell us nothing. There are ways of mitigating expectation bias but they are very difficult to apply within standard ethical requirements for informed consent. But, as said above, you cannot ask other people to come up with better trials and if they don't, claim this one is OK. Reliability is not negotiable.

And it is not based on sound neuroscience. It is based on vague speculations that have borrowed neuroscience sounding terms.
 
It is based on sound neuroscience, and they seemed to do everything they could to reduce bias (including having the placebo group).
I’m sorry, but have you really read the critique here? The quality of the placebo is extremely bad, to the point that I would be professionally embarrassed to publish such a methodologically flawed study.
 
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I noted a peculiar journal quirk, that I think we have come across before, with this study. You can access the study on PubMed. You can also access the authors' reply to a critical comment. But the critical comment, probably in the form of a letter, is not listed. It may be that one can access it through the journal via one's institution, but there is an asymmetry here that isn't right.
 
The main point you make is that it is subjective, and yes it is, but that is the nature of pain. There are no objective measures. We have to believe the patients when they tell us they are in pain, and when they are in less pain. Yes, that is subject to bias. That doesn't mean the study is worthless.

You may not have seen my post earlier in the thread where I asked you if you accepted that you can't rely on subjective measures (people saying how they feel) in an open-label trial. Do you not accept that? And if you don't, why do you think that drug trials are double-blind and placebo-controlled?

[Edit: Sorry, my earlier post was on the thread on brain-training.]
 
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