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Distinguishing features of Long COVID identified through immune profiling, 2022, Klein, Iwasaki et al

Discussion in 'Long Covid research' started by LarsSG, Aug 10, 2022.

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  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sly Saint, Sep 25, 2023
    #41
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  2. Jaybee00

    Jaybee00 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This was published in Nature… impressive (I think).
     
    Jaybee00, Sep 25, 2023
    #42
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  3. Jaybee00

    Jaybee00 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Jaybee00, Sep 25, 2023
    #43
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  4. Jaybee00

    Jaybee00 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Jaybee00, Sep 25, 2023
    #44
    sebaaa, MEMarge, SNT Gatchaman and 2 others like this.
  5. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Quite a few changes from the Aug 22 pre-print. More patients enrolled from the two original locations and an independent external cohort to provide some selected comparisons. There are now multiple 2023 references too. This paper reads very well and I expect it will be featured frequently in the general and scientific media in the next two weeks (already as Sly Saint noted above). I hope it is emphasised that the biological data shows no need for any psychological explanations, and that patient reports are highly congruent with these advanced immune assessments (despite BPS's #alltestsarenormal).

    Will be fascinating to see what (if any) overlaps there are with the NIH intramural ME study findings, particularly with regard to the absence of demonstrated significant auto-antibody activity, but clear immune responses to reactivated EBV and VZV (though not HSV-1) and ongoing circulating immune cell changes.

    The original preprint of this paper was Aug 2022, so 13 months to publication. However they obviously did more work in the interim. NIH submitted in April, so coming up on 6 months soon - I'm hoping it's published before year end. Next month would be good...
     
    SNT Gatchaman, Sep 26, 2023
    #45
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  6. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    SNT Gatchaman, Sep 26, 2023
    #46
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  7. EndME

    EndME Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    EndME, Sep 26, 2023
    #47
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  8. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    SNT Gatchaman, Sep 29, 2023
    #48
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  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    From the video:
    4.30 Putrino says that they have two more papers in the pipeline with more important differentiating factors - proteomics, hormone differences, gender differences. They will be talking about them soon.

    This team is still talking about low morning cortisol as being a biomarker, while acknowledging that not everyone has low morning cortisol.

    6.30 Clinicians need to look for hormone dysregulation, they are seeing that. They are seeing evidence of immune dysregulation, T cell exhaustion, B cell activation, latent virus reactivation. Putrino suggests that clinicians look for signs of these and treat - antivirals, immunotherapies, treat cortisol levels according to the pattern the patient has, steroids. 'These initial findings are actionable although they are not absolute'.

    Putrino argues at length against conversion disorder, MUS. 70% of Long covid patients meet standard criteria for POTS. Putrino and Tuller together note that the rabid BPS proponent can still gaslight patients 'of course the mind can affect the immune system'. Putrino says 'well, if someone's highly stressed out, why are their cortisol levels so low, you can't have it both ways'. [Actually, the BPS crowd absolutely can have it both ways - low cortisol has been suggested as being indicative of HPA axis dysfunction somehow.] Tuller mentions the conflicting ideas of people being afraid of exercise while also being perfectionists and crashing because they do too much.

    21.30 Some discussion of vaccines injury. Putrino doesn't dismiss this, says that they have been looking at some cases of vaccine injury, comparing and contrasting with Long Covid. Putrino says they see many of the same things that they see in Long Covid, including micro clots in the vaccine injury patients.


    ****
    I haven't read the latest version of the paper, but I wonder if anyone has put the points about their morning cortisol finding that I mentioned earlier in the thread to this team? The idea that something must be wrong with the cortisol levels of people with ME/CFS has been persistent BPS myth arising from the idea that cortisol is related to stress. But, differences in total cortisol are not borne out by the literature, and differences in morning cortisol can be explained. So I will be surprised if there really is a morning cortisol issue in this cohort that is part of the pathology of the disease, rather than the result of lifestyle factors (fewer physical challenges, later morning rising), or use of steroids during the acute disease.
     
    Hutan, Sep 30, 2023
    #49
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  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Hutan, Sep 30, 2023
    #50
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  11. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Critique/discussion of the Nature article (Distinguishing Features of Long Covid Identified Through Immune Profiling)

    Starts at 16:00 minutes in (episode 1048 of TWIV https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/).
     
    shak8, Sep 30, 2023
    #51
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  12. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Screenshot 2023-12-18 at 5.26.22 PM Medium.jpeg Screenshot 2023-12-18 at 5.27.50 PM Medium.jpeg

    Not sure what if any relevance this could have. As always, potentially this is something that could be elevated in early ME/CFS that normalises in longer term, established disease.

    Fluge/Mella study Serum BAFF and APRIL Levels, T-Lymphocyte Subsets, and Immunoglobulins after B-Cell Depletion Using the Monoclonal Anti-CD20 Antibody Rituximab in Myalgic Encephalopathy/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (2016, PLOS ONE). The 2011 study that some of these patients were drawn said - "The mean CFS disease duration was 5.1 years in the Rituximab group and 8.1 years in the Placebo group, with maximum disease durations of 13 and 18 years, respectively."

    ---
    A few papers related to APRIL (BAFF = B cell activation factor, APRIL = A proliferation inducing ligand) —

    BAFF and APRIL: A Tutorial on B Cell Survival (2003, Annual Reviews)

    Cracking the BAFF code (2009, Nature Reviews Immunology)

    “APRIL hath put a spring of youth in everything”: Relevance of APRIL for survival (2009, Journal of Cellular Physiology)
     
    SNT Gatchaman, Dec 18, 2023
    #52
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  13. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    SNT Gatchaman, Jan 5, 2024
    #53
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  14. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    SNT Gatchaman, Mar 24, 2024
    #54
    Peter Trewhitt, Hutan and Trish like this.
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