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David Tuller: Trial By Error: Professor Crawley’s Bogus BuzzFeed Claims - 17th January 2018

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Esther12, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Just saw this appear as I was about to go to bed, so haven't read it yet, but expect it will be great and of interest to everyone here.

    http://www.virology.ws/2018/01/17/trial-by-error-professor-crawleys-bogus-buzzfeed-claims/
     
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  2. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Belter

    DT is like a terrier digging stuff up and bringing it to us as a present. In this case some gems from JE that he’s had temporarily buried.

    I like the BPS ideological brigades name harking back to their supposed left wing supposed activism.
     
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  3. guest001

    guest001 Guest

    I know this isn't 'new news' in the sense Tuller and Chivers had already partly explored and published these issues elsewhere, but the way in which Tuller presents this argument of Crawley's ineptitude and inability to actually keep sch-tum about her dubious research practices is very neat indeed. Like it. :thumbup:
     
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  4. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I agree, he subscribes to no bothsiderism, only the facts and common sense.
     
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  5. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Is it just me, or is Tuller a bit fulsome in his praise for the Chiver piece? LP is loopy, and the article about LP explained what it was, so in that way it was great and much better then almost any other piece about SMILE, but that was about it.

    I thought this was a bit generous to say this claim from Crawley was in any way true!:

    Probably best to be a bit generous though, and then present the evidence so readers can see the problems for themselves. You can't change primary outcomes midway through collecting a trial's results, and then say you changed the primary outcome before results were collected! In this case, those results were part of a feasibility stufy where results were being examined as they came in!! More exclamation marks!!!
     
  6. Sbag

    Sbag Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If a teenager said I shouldnt take school records of absence as useful and should rely on what they told me about how often they attended school, I would be highly suspicious. How many parents trust that their children don't tell fibs?!
    Example - Did you do all of your homework? Yes, Can i go and play computer games now...

    Would any reputable scientist really take the words of teenagers as basis for results suitable for reporting to the global medical community over actual tangible records from an authority. Seriously!! Especially when they say to believe them rather than the school - that would immediately ring alarm bells for me.

    Not saying they are lying maliciously but what if it is another example of people wanting to seem to be improving so that they might get access to more treatment - or maybe so that they get to stop having to undergo ridiculous treatment?
     
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  7. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Ah - this is patient engagement.
    Ticky box
     
  8. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    She seems to believe that lying leads to a greater good, so if someone is lying to her and she benefits from it it absolves her of responsibility (in her mind).
    Reminds me of an old expression, all spirits are enslaved that serve things evil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  9. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That is a very good point.

    I remember from a lecture by prof. Sommerfelt (neurologist and paediatrician with long experience on children and adolescents with ME) saying that in a consultation, when he asks the child/teenager how often he/she has been to school lately, the patient often gives a higher account than the parents.

    Prof. Sommerfelt said further that when the everyday-life is so uneventful, it can actually be quite hard to remember things accurately as school-attendance. They don't like to remember and think about all the days spent at home, rather the time spent at school. In a way it is a form of cognitive therapy, prof. Sommerfelt continued. They usually don't need to be offered it, because they are already doing it.
     
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  10. large donner

    large donner Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maybe this is the problem in essence, Esther Crawleys own school attendance and qualifications up to doctorate may just be a self report.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  11. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  12. Allele

    Allele Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm stunned, actually, that this isn't already a scandal and EC a laughingstock among her peers.

    Can you imagine anyone saying about their trial that they amended the parameters halfway through because the participants didn't like them? I'm guessing the only reason this ridiculousness has somehow passed through all filters is simply because the participants were children, and she's presenting the change as some sort of compassion for her study subjects.

    They tried on the same lie with actometers in PACE. The kids "objected" to wearing fitbits so they binned that dataset.
     
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  13. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Professor Crawley also states that the change in the primary outcome measure was made before results were collected. This is true. But it is also true that the change was made after results were collected.

    Isn't he just doing what I did on some thread before - saying 'This is true (technically); but it is also untrue' - pointing out that 'results' does not mean all the results.
     
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  14. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    No, DT is 100% right to expose this much used technique of ECs. I have met plenty of deeply manipulative people, and this is a standard trait. They state a partial truth, knowing that how they present it people will infer untruths from it. But they can and do honestly claim they never spoke an untruth, and think that's OK, and often carry their believers along with them.

    DT very nicely exposes how she states her partial truth, but then he clarifies the rest of the truth that she o-so-conveniently overlooked to mention. She seems completely incapable of avoiding doing it.

    DT doing this means people can see what she does, and really appreciate that carefully engineered partial truths are way out of line.

    I've been going on about this for ages now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
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  15. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Agreed. I think she must be losing the plot to say something as farcical as that. I mean, if ever a statement clarifies a less than tenuous grasp of methodology, that has to be it; you don't need to be a scientist to grasp that. I almost feel sorry for her, she is digging such a deep hole for herself. I would guess some of her BPS confederates might be quietly disowning her.
     
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  16. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wouldn't, she should be prosecuted for the harm she has caused

    That would be good news, but somehow i don't think we have it that good
     
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  17. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Don't worry, it was only a brief aberration :).
    I think self preservation might start to kick in with them, if they realise she is going down the plughole and don't want to get sucked down with her. For these folks self preservation will trump loyalty I think.
     
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  18. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Cognitive dysfunction, right? :laugh:
    I don't think they intend to give up, i suspect they will dig their heels in harder because they are married to their ridiculous beliefs. Once we have a disease mechanism science will stop believing them but i would be surprised if anything else will be enough.
     
  19. Allele

    Allele Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes I think they are sticking together because they are terrified of what happens when the thread gets pulled for real.
     
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  20. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is important. It is one of the main ways propaganda works. The audience is led to a single conclusion, typically without it actually being stated, and left to make the final logical step for themselves, while being flattered along the way that they are making an objective independent assessment of the technical and ethical aspects of the 'argument' being presented.
     
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