Covid-19 vaccines and vaccinations

Snow Leopard said:
It is simply that we demand very high efficacy since governments want to reduce spread, rather than simply reduce rates of hospitalisations and deaths.
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Interesting, anyone know the rates of hospitalisations and deaths e.g. at 1 year (we've been vaccinating people for about 1 year - I'm loosing track of time).

Our hospitals seem to be swamped, and have been for months, here in Northern Ireland.
 
Trish said:
it's a plea to health people to get vaccinated.
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My wife mentioned earlier that there was a significant uptake in first vaccines after the vaccine passport was introduced (Northern Ireland). So maybe the incentive of being able to participate in activities, via a vaccine, works.

Medic who lives nearby told me months ago that hospitals are swamped with people who wouldn't take the vaccine ---- his advice was if you aren't vaccinated well just stay at home --- rather than going out, getting infected, and clogging up the hospitals.
 
FMMM1 said:
Interesting, anyone know the rates of hospitalisations and deaths e.g. at 1 year (we've been vaccinating people for about 1 year - I'm loosing track of time).
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We don't really have that data yet.
mRNA vaccine efficacy against hospitalisation and death drops to around 90%, 80ish% for AZ at 6-8 months. I think this is still mostly due to the drop in the 'first line' protection against symptomatic infection due to antibody titres, rather than a reduction in effectiveness of the memory T-cell or B-cell response.
 
Daisymay said:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national...rs-should-be-exempt-from-covid-19-vaccination

Professor Warren Tate - Expert says chronic fatigue syndrome sufferers should be exempt from Covid-19 vaccination
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Thank you for this @Daisymay. I don't want to be exempt from the vaccine but do think attention should be being paid to those of us who are having severe reactions to the vaccine. I have had 3 primary vs so far causing extreme reactions.
I had hoped that fractional doses might be the way forward but this article says that responses are worse with each vaccine, so if half doses are given, there will be double the number of vaccines precipitating further adverse reactions.
I don't know the safest way forward but especially with the new variant, I don't want to be unvaccinated.
 
I think there should be proper studies done about these adverse reactions in ME/CFS. Interesting 20% figure that worsened from the survey in the above linked piece, but without studying it properly we don't know. Maybe if someone looks into why these adverse reactions are taking place we would learn something about ME/CFS. I do think we should be able to get medical exemptions, particularly if there is good evidence that we are at risk. I found the claim that the adverse reactions are more likely at an early stage of illness interesting. I am not sure what this is based on; I have not seen it before.

I am still waiting to go for an appointment. I had covid March 2020 and haven't recovered. I would probably be able to make it to a pharmacy (sort of), whereas I was not well enough before. I am generally housebound (I leave on emergency basis) and have no contacts. If I hadn't had covid I would have got the jab, but I was so much better than I am now. I was moderate and quite functional. This is no longer the case. I am planning on getting it eventually but I have felt I cannot afford a relapse as am barely hanging on living alone and would have to move back in with family. I do change my mind a bit about this but I am waiting to get some proper evidence; maybe it won't be forthcoming. I hope there is more understanding brought to this subject; it's not a great position to be in.

I am sorry to hear of people's adverse effects here. (I appreciate that many people have been fine also.) I hope you find some improvement soon. :heart: xoxo
 
Binkie4 said:
Thank you for this @Daisymay. I don't want to be exempt from the vaccine but do think attention should be being paid to those of us who are having severe reactions to the vaccine. I have had 3 primary vs so far causing extreme reactions.
I had hoped that fractional doses might be the way forward but this article says that responses are worse with each vaccine, so if half doses are given, there will be double the number of vaccines precipitating further adverse reactions.
I don't know the safest way forward but especially with the new variant, I don't want to be unvaccinated.
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Very sorry to hear you've had severe reactions, I hope things pick up for you x
 
I have just come across this on a fb site.

"A Bill to require the Secretary of State to establish an independent review of disablement caused by Covid-19 vaccinations and the adequacy of the compensation offered to persons so disabled; and for connected purposes."

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2...OSn69tjF12cdbQUIPIXSiZIDYXZlvB4AZFvIz83Nx8LB8
The bill is proposed by Sir Christopher Chope, Conservative.

I am interested in "the review of disablement caused by the covid -19 vaccinations" but more from the perspective of getting adequate information on which to make a decision about taking further vaccines. The uncertainty about what to do is extremely stressful but there is no consistent medical advice.
 
Moved post

TigerLilea said:
It is the body's reaction to the vaccine, rather than the vaccine itself that is the issue.
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Agree and I'd go one step further — it is the body's reaction to the spike protein, rather than the vaccine itself that is the issue in some people.

I.e. I don't think it matters if you are exposed to viral spike, manufactured-in-moth-blood protein sub-unit spike, or mRNA-induced cell-expressed spike. I think if you have whatever the predisposition is, you'll likely do badly with any exposure.
 
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could a vaccine against [containing or producing] a non-spike part of the virus be safer and effective?

i am assuming bits of virus that are not spike are available to antibodies and t cells.

do you think pwme etc. more vulnerable than normals? i was under that impression. what abot severty level?
 
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Samuel said:
could a vaccine against [containing or producing] a non-spike part of the virus be safer and effective?
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As far as I understand, you can really only target the spike protein. I believe this is because the SARS2 coronavirus is an example of an enveloped RNA virus, so you have to aim to identify the bits on the outside of the envelope. The spike protein is here because that's the part that binds to a cell's ACE receptor to allow the viral innards to be injected into a cell.

The other outer parts are formed of envelope (E) and membrane (M) proteins. I believe E and M do not have reliably targetable portions on their outer aspects. The spike protein (S) has two parts: S1 and S2. S1 allows attachment to a host cell and S2 facilitates fusion with the cell membrane. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines use mRNA that encodes (a slightly modified/stabilised form of) the whole S protein.

The nucleocapsid (N) protein is on the inside of the viral envelope and packages up the viral RNA that is injected into a host cell. So once that's "available" it's too late as it's now on the inside of a host cell, so you'd have to wait for some viral surface expression on that host cell which would need to be destroyed in the process of dealing with the virus. The N-protein is also a bit variable in some of its components.

Samuel said:
do you think pwme etc. more vulnerable than normals? i was under that impression. what abot severty level?
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It's not yet known. At the moment we only really have anecdotes of some pwME (and LC) having deterioration (while most seem fine and some even reporting improvement). Proper studies are needed to answer your question, but I think we need to be open to the possibility.

I'm at my limits of understanding with this area, though hoping to learn more as we go on, as I think the long COVID model is very important for ME generally, even if the mechanism only applies to a minority of pwME. It's quite fascinating though I would prefer to be a little more remote from the coalface! I'm sure others here with more knowledge can correct or add to my summary.
 
SNT Gatchaman said:
It's not yet known. At the moment we only really have anecdotes of some pwME (and LC) having deterioration (while most seem fine and some even reporting improvement). Proper studies are needed to answer your question, but I think we need to be open to the possibility.

I'm at my limits of understanding with this area, though hoping to learn more as we go on, as I think the long COVID model is very important for ME generally, even if the mechanism only applies to a minority of pwME. It's quite fascinating though I would prefer to be a little more remote from the coalface! I'm sure others here with more knowledge can correct or add to my summary.
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I am very grateful for your explanation. It's hard when faced with yet another major problem on top of ME to try and make sense of this.

It's not 'just' a deterioration that those of us with an adverse reaction are facing. It can also be entirely new symptoms which can occur in ME anyway (but not that person previously) , a completely severe relapse in people who were in a long term remission from ME or something completely different.

My own adverse reaction to the first AZ jab (Indian one) included head pain, nausea, vomiting, noise and light sensitivity of a type, duration and sensation never experienced before (plus more).

It's not a deterioration in my ME for me. We don't know what is is or how many of us there are. The UK charities are not interested. We have tried talking to AZ, UK govt agencies but no real interest or investigations.

At my local hospital there was no on-call Neurologist or Immunologist at the time I was at my most serious (when I lost control of my legs) and as some of you may know I was sent away from my first attempt to get help with no physical examination and being told that I had read too much on the internet.

It's been 8 months now.
 
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@Ariel Thanks for that link. I was really struggling to find the data, even for healthy people, but that data for pwme is fairly easy to follow. Seems to suggest it doesn't matter waht you get, whereas for cort's poll Moderna and Pfizer did do better than AZ in terms of recovery times.

I am totally unable to decide about getting a booster, keep changing my mind.

For anyone who isn't aware (our govt aren't exactly on the ball so I assume people won't know) they've setup covid walk in clinics now where you can get the vaccine which they should have done ages ago: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...alk-in-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-site/ it also tells you which vaccines they have, so you don't end up wasting your time if you think for example you'd be better off with moderna.

I still think a moderna half dose is probably a viable and interesting route out of potentially unpleasant reactions. But have not been able to get any info on this. Has anyone requested this vaccine and had any response back on the day? I really think if we got the half dose booster our reactions might be far less aggressive (for the unfortunate like me who take 3 months to recover from AZ).
 
Dom said:
I really think if we got the half dose booster our reactions might be far less aggressive (for the unfortunate like me who take 3 months to recover from AZ).
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From another group that I belong to several people have been told by their neurologists that in their opinion it wouldn't matter which vaccine was used, or the size of the dose, that if you are going to have an adverse reaction it will happen no matter what. And a smaller dose doesn't necessarily mean that you would have less of a reaction or for a shorter duration.
 
Does that make any sense tho?

Surely any reaction would be linked to something on the vaccine, so what type is likely to matter.

I agree that possibly the amount may not make a difference, but can't see how what it was wouldn't.
 
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The Ministry of Health in NZ said this recently about a plan to do a trial of fractionated doses of Pfizer (so four smaller doses instead of two) in NZ on an interested ME group. Our main ME clinician said there was some evidence of reduced reactogenicity with fractionated doses but can not provide us with any evidence of this or the source of information so pwME can consider this information for themselves.

The spokesperson also questioned whether fractionated dosing would add to risks faced by those with pre-existing conditions.

"There is no current evidence that having four vaccinations will reduce side effects to vaccination. Indeed, it may increase the risk of side effects since the reactogenicity (which is the expected symptoms you get from your immune system such as headaches, fevers, flu-like symptoms) is expected to increase with each dose," she said.

"There is no current information on what dose interval would work but it is evident that the time to complete a four-dose programme will be longer than a two-dose programme, meaning that this vulnerable group of people would be at risk of Covid-19 infection for longer."
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So from their view each dose increases reactogenicity and side effects.

However our IMAC (immunisation committee) is in the process of working with an immunologist at Auckland University to get ethical approval and funding for a trial. There is no guarantee this will go ahead.

This will most likely be for the Pfizer vaccine as that is the preferred vaccine here. Unclear if AZ might be included as it has only just become available as an option for NZ citizens.
 
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