Comments Simon Wessely revisits some of his early work on chronic fatigue syndrome, journal article (2012) Wessely

Barry

Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Was just trawling and saw this, can't see it anywhere else here.

https://www.meassociation.org.uk/20...-fatigue-syndrome-journal-article-march-2012/

I was however struck not by the overlaps with muscle disorders but with some of the symptoms that I had seen in depressed patients before I came to Queen Square. It dawned on me that I had a wonderful opportunity to test this out, since one thing that the Square was not short of was people with well characterised neuromuscular disorders. So I decided to carry out a simple clinical study, comparing the pattern of fatigue and fatigability in the CFS patients compared with those with illnesses such as myasthenia gravis. I enlisted the help of Robin Powell, another psychiatric trainee, to recruit a second control series of patients with major depression who were being treated at the Royal Free Hospital London.

There was no instrument available to measure subjective fatigue, so I simply invented one, which would later get modified into the Chalder Fatigue Scale, which also became a citation ‘hit’. And basically that was that.

What we showed was clear. The pattern of fatigue in the CFS patients was different to that seen in those with peripheral neuromuscular diseases, and instead was similar to those in the affective controls. The only time when the neuromuscular patients did look like the ME patients was when the former group also had comorbid depression. But there were also differences between the ME patients and the depressed control group that Robin had recruited, although these differences were not as great as those between the CFS patients and those with myasthenia. The CFS patients did not show core cognitive features of depression, such as guilt or self blame. We wondered if this was a reflection of their different pattern of attribution (blaming an external cause, namely a virus, rather than an internal cause, as the depressed patients did). Overall, however, our principal conclusion was that the fatigue in the ‘chronic postviral fatigue’ patients (as we labelled them, knowing that ME would be unacceptable to the journal) had a central, not peripheral, origin, and that primary muscle disease was therefore an unlikely explanation for the symptoms and disability that the patients showed.
 
There was no instrument available to measure subjective fatigue, so I simply invented one, which would later get modified into the Chalder Fatigue Scale, which also became a citation ‘hit’.

So we actually have Wessely to thank for the Chalder Fatigue Scale. Hadn't realised that before. :rolleyes: No wonder it's a pile of doo-dah (or s**t if you prefer). Chalder is a piece of work too. :mad:

I went to a thing (can't think of word - there were a collection of speakers on CBT) about 20 years ago in London where she was a speaker. Chatted with a few people (attendees) in breaks, they were nearly all CFS clinic types, and they didn't really want to talk to me, prob cos I was so anti-Chalder. It was a waste of time really, not just the cost of the meeting, but the cost of the train too! :eek:
 
Was just trawling and saw this, can't see it anywhere else here.

https://www.meassociation.org.uk/20...-fatigue-syndrome-journal-article-march-2012/
TL;DR: guy gets easily confused by superficial similarities. At a distance, sleeping, syncope and coma look exactly the same. It takes a fool to insist upon closer examination that the superficial-similarities-at-a-distance are a better explanation than the obvious differences.

Though Wessely inventing the early CFQ explains a lot of things, especially why it seems to be a tool often used in IAPT despite being utterly useless beyond fishing for a specific answer to irrelevant questions.

And this guy is at the top of the psychiatric profession. Really making a strong case that it is a superfluous specialty that needs to be taken down several notches.
 
TL;DR: guy gets easily confused by superficial similarities. At a distance, sleeping, syncope and coma look exactly the same. It takes a fool to insist upon closer examination that the superficial-similarities-at-a-distance are a better explanation than the obvious differences.

Though Wessely inventing the early CFQ explains a lot of things, especially why it seems to be a tool often used in IAPT despite being utterly useless beyond fishing for a specific answer to irrelevant questions.

And this guy is at the top of the psychiatric profession. Really making a strong case that it is a superfluous specialty that needs to be taken down several notches.
Yes, if you searched the scientific literature with the brief to find three adjacent paragraphs with as many flaws in as you could, I suspect my excerpt above would be a fair candidate.
 
I made the mistake of doing a Google search to try to find out if Wessely is esteemed by his psychiatrist peers (those not involved with his CFS/ME work) or whether they are appropriately embarrassed 'by association' (sharing the same profession). This led me to the following link:

https://www.meassociation.org.uk/20...fessor-simon-wessely-the-times-6-august-2011/

Well, apparantly he is 'dedicated, intelligent and well liked'...:sick:

The above interview though, was sickening to read - so much nonsense and distain of patients running through it.

In it he even states that Alzheimer’s and autism are 'psychiatric disorders' :jawdrop:. This man's ego knows no bounds - he is completely happy to re-frame any neuro-medical condition - regardless of scientific evidence to the contrary or his own lack of professional expertise in it - to suit his own narrative and agenda, muddying the waters in the process. It appears that he wants to expand the domain of psychiatry to subsume neurological conditions (but not vice versa). Just because a particular neurological condition may cause additional problems in patients that may be helped by behavioural interventions, doesn't therefore make it a 'psychiatric disorder'.

However, the comments section made an interesting read. But why is it only patients calling him out - why aren't his professional peers challenging his unscientific and unevidenced remarks?
 
However, the comments section made an interesting read. But why is it only patients calling him out - why aren't his professional peers challenging his unscientific and unevidenced remarks?
The nature of the massive power asymmetry between physicians and patients means his colleagues will never be in a position to see who he really is. They are equals, he has little power over them, even in cases where hierarchy actually means he has some. It's as big a difference as your neighbor being a prison guard and being guarded by the same person in a shady prison that doesn't care much about the welfare of its criminal population, a side no one will ever see unless they are unfortunate.

Then again, like most of his like-minded colleagues, he does not seem to grasp the impact of his research. Wessely has hurt millions of people he has never seen or heard about. That's more patients than he would even be able to see in a century if he did nothing but that. He's just closed his eyes to the suffering he built his career on and focused on the awards and knighthood and all the other perks of hurting unseen people who have been disappeared to give the illusion of cutting costs. I don't think he'll ever actually get it and neither will his peers, who have never been in a position where he holds absolute power over their lives without accountability or oversight, as he managed with us.

Even some of the worst people in the world have plenty of admirers. It's all about circumstances.
 
What is the reasoning for sharing these links again, it just raises Search Engine (Google) ranking of the original paper, doing us a deservice. you might want to break the link in a way that if somebody wants to see it, they can copy and paste but a literal link is just not good. I saw a few posts looking at the past.
 
The nature of the massive power asymmetry between physicians and patients means his colleagues will never be in a position to see who he really is.

During my time as a patient representative with the NIHR, more than once I have been in a room full of consultants, mostly surgeons. Hearing their views on psychiatry was, to say the least, interesting. Lets just say, it wasn't exactly positive.
 
During my time as a patient representative with the NIHR, more than once I have been in a room full of consultants, mostly surgeons. Hearing their views on psychiatry was, to say the least, interesting. Lets just say, it wasn't exactly positive.
No good to us if they only say it behind closed doors.

Though they will likely be saying it more openly when they start realising that morbidity and mortality are rising in their patients because of delays in getting diagnosed caused by the IAPT/BPS madness.
 
No good to us if they only say it behind closed doors.

Though they will likely be saying it more openly when they start realising that morbidity and mortality are rising in their patients because of delays in getting diagnosed caused by the IAPT/BPS madness.

Yes, the meetings (like NICE ones) were confidential, so I have to be careful what I say. However, it helped my development to be part of these (sometimes private) discussions between committee members.
 
Last edited:
What is the reasoning for sharing these links again, it just raises Search Engine (Google) ranking of the original paper, doing us a deservice. you might want to break the link in a way that if somebody wants to see it, they can copy and paste but a literal link is just not good. I saw a few posts looking at the past.

Direct links will be tracked back to this thread.
 
No good to us if they only say it behind closed doors.

Though they will likely be saying it more openly when they start realising that morbidity and mortality are rising in their patients because of delays in getting diagnosed caused by the IAPT/BPS madness.
It’s ok saying it behind the scenes if you’re actually trying to influence change behind the scenes otherwise it’s basically just moaning and abdicating responsibility.
 
Back
Top Bottom