Coming soon; BBC Radio 4 investigation into IAPT Sep 2019

Sly Saint

Sly Saint

Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Dr Mike Scott (CBT watch):

When You Do Nothing, Repeated Testing Will Likely Indicate ‘Recovery’ or ‘Remission’ At Some Point

IAPT shouts eureka at this point, discharges the client and claims the improvement is due to the therapists efforts. It is like declaring that a person who is terminally ill is cured because they have had a good refreshing day gardening. In effect IAPT has gone fishing for flashes in the pan – I make similar points in a forthcoming BBC Radio 4 investigation into IAPT.
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That’s great news about the Radio 4 programme Mike. I do hope they will be discussing how MUS and LTC patients are paying the price for the IAPT service through the reductions in their physical healthcare services – mental health funding pitched against physical health funding – and how it appears that most of the MUS patients referred to IAPT will be labelled with a mental health condition (‘somatization disorder’) that they do not have.
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Hopefully a paper I have co-authored with Keith Geraghty ‘ Treating Medically Unexplained Symptoms via Improving Access to Psychological Therapy (IAPT): Major Limitations Identified’ should appear before long. I did mention to Radio 4 my concerns about IAPTs expansion into MUS, but they record far more material than is broadcast so whether it finds its way into the 40 min programme I don’t know.
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so paper with Keith Geraghty also on the way.

http://www.cbtwatch.com/when-you-do...recovery-or-remission-at-some-point/#comments

eta: dates as per next post
 
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I wonder what arguments the evangelists of IAPT will use when it starts getting too obvious that the whole thing is a massive dumpster fire. Eventually the people who expect savings will start getting antsy about not getting anything for their money and being annoyed at growing discontent. Morale will also drop precipitously when success has to be faked with cherry-picking and selective reporting that simply ignores anything bad.

My guess is probably argue the project should be expanded even further, that the failure is simply because the implementation is too timid. Wonder if it will lead to attempts at making it coercive, probably at some point. Question is how people react to that, but money will likely be the deciding factor in the end.

But more and more I think it's obvious that all the circling-the-wagon about the abysmal psychosocial research in ME is entirely caused by us being the proving grounds for this. Showing failure is simply unacceptable since our "success" is the very foundation of the project.

At least Icarus actually flew. This bloated carcass can't even get off the ground.
 
rvallee said:
I wonder what arguments the evangelists of IAPT will use when it starts getting too obvious that the whole thing is a massive dumpster fire. Eventually the people who expect savings will start getting antsy about not getting anything for their money and being annoyed at growing discontent. Morale will also drop precipitously when success has to be faked with cherry-picking and selective reporting that simply ignores anything bad.
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I am interested in seeing the reactions from other specialities in medicine when the delay in them being able to diagnose and treat caused by the IAPT madness starts killing off patients who could have easily been saved.

Sadly that is what it will probably take.

Bet those responsible for it all will never be held to account.
 
On tonight.

BBC Investigates ‘The Therapy Business’
18th September 2019 admin Uncategorized

with recordings from an IAPT (Improving Access to Psychological Treatment) client, IAPT therapist, myself and the British Medical Association. The 37 minute programme will be broadcast on Radio 4 on Tuesday, September 24th at 8.0pm and repeated on Sunday, September 29th at 5.0pm.

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hopefully this will be a springboard for the expression of the views of those most effected by IAPT, and will lead to a transformation of the Service.

Dr Mike Scott
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http://www.cbtwatch.com/bbc-investigates-the-therapy-business/

(see previous post for link)
 
So far they are talking about bad experiences of therapy as an individual thing i.e. what happens if someone has a psych problem and they aren't happy with a therapy session or a course of therapy. It's more about how to deal with "bad therapists" and so far how to find one that is registered and how to complain.

Problems navigating the process. Choosing a therapist who meets BACP standards.

Now a woman who was sexually abused as a child and now sexually abused by a therapist. The focus is on private therapists. Her therapist was sacked by the NHS but still sees private patients at £60 ph.

As there is a long waiting list on the NHS people are paying to see private ones.

Now onto regulation. People are calling themselves psychotherapists or therapists without qualification. Complainers are not believed.

Now saying how many NHS beds are being occupied by people needing psych care. Film from 1966.


CBT - training can be bought online and "accredited" for £29.00

The presenter did an "advanced diploma" and when he failed it gave him the correct answers to write down and try again.

The course tells him how to get patients

Back onto regulation. Complaints process for membership bodies found wanting. People can be diagnosed with a personality disorder to turn a blind eye on complaints.

Now on to attitudes. Film from 1966 saying how many NHS beds are being occupied by people needing mental care....

Back to online fake therapists/therapies. Presenter has bought online apps to treat insomnia. No one takes ownership. "wild west".

The program so far doesn't sound at all like the original description. Maybe the wrong dates given?
 
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Sarah94 said:
What happened?
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No mention of IAPT, no 'interview' with Mike Scott.
Mostly about lack of regulation of private therapists and patients who have suffered as a consequence.
In fact he was very complementary about the NHS service (said he enjoyed CBT) in that at least you knew the therapists were 'properly trained' and had the relevent qualifications. The only real criticism was about waiting times for treatment.

But it was mostly about the fact that anyone can set themselves up as a private psychotherapist and that there was no real mechanism for redress.

The only parallel I see for us is with the quacks who claim to be able to treat ME and businesses like the LP and OHC.
 
Mike has written about this on his website (as a comment response):

25th September 2019 at 2:46 pm


I am at a loss to understand why my contribution, that of an IAPT client and those of an IAPT therapist were not included in the broadcast last night. Nor was there a contribution from the BMA or Savoy. I’m waiting for a response from the producer.
It is regrettable that the presenter opined ‘from what I hear the vast majority have had good experiences’. I told them that the recovery rate in IAPT is 10-15% and I gave the producer a copy of my paper ‘IAPT – the Need for radical Reform’ with this data in it see link below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/flvxtq2jyhmn6i1/IAPT The Need for Radical Reform.pdf?dl=0

There is it seems a prejudice against looking at objective independent data. It is very demoralising but the truth will out eventually, must keep going.

Mike
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http://www.cbtwatch.com/bbc-investigates-the-therapy-business/#comments
 
IAPT is both NHS England's and the DWP's 'baby'. It will take a lot of work to publically expose the problems inherent in the IAPT model.

In the meantime it won't just be those with 'medically unexplained symptoms' being damaged by the lack of proper medical care, but also those with serious and significant mental health problems will be suffering from increasingly inappropriate services and diminishing effective ones. These are the 2 sides to the same coin - money will be taken from other mental health services (such as those supporting the most severely affected needing longterm services) to support the IAPT expansion. All to give the appearance the government is 'putting mental health on a par with physical health'.

Welcome to the brave new world of modern England.
 
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Sly Saint said:
In fact he was very complementary about the NHS service (said he enjoyed CBT) in that at least you knew the therapists were 'properly trained' and had the relevent qualifications. The only real criticism was about waiting times for treatment.
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Yes, it was almost as if he was promoting the need for an expansion of IAPT, since IAPT is the only way left for patients in England with mild-moderate mental health conditions (that is those under primary, rather than secondary or tertiary care) to receive NHS pyschological therapies.

The final production may not have had sinister undertones in itself - if it wasn't for the fact that we know the presenter had formally interviewed Mike Scott as part of the original recordings for this broadcast. I expect the editing out of any IAPT critque has shocked us less than Mike himself - it's just 'business as usual' to us!
 
Simbindi said:
These are the 2 sides to the same coin - money will be taken from other mental health services (such as those supporting the most severely affected needing longterm services) to support the IAPT expansion. All to give the appearance the government is 'putting mental health on a par with physical health'.
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This is exactly what happened to a dear friend of mine who has severe & enduring psychological injury - trauma related. She was having psychotherapy which she said was really helping & had lead to some easily observable changes & improvements, but in the middle of the process they disbanded the service (providing long term therapy for those with more complex issues) to make way for IAPT.
All the therapists were made redundant in favour of employing less expensive & less well trained/experienced people. And she was just abandoned because at assessment by the new service she was deemed 'too complex' for the new short-term-therapy-only service, and there isn't anything else, so she's without anything at all.
 
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