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Opinion Chronic fatigue syndromes: real illnesses that people can recover from, 2023, The Oslo Chronic Fatigue Consortium

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic research - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by Kalliope, Sep 23, 2023.

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  1. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,216
    Location:
    Australia
    In the field of ME/CFS, a trench warfare began between individuals who wanted to see an explanation at a primarily biomedical level and others who wanted to involve the brain and behaviour to a greater extent.

    No, it is a conflict between robust science and non-science. If the brain-behaviour crowd had been able to robustly demonstrate genuine sustained benefits from their 'treatments' they would not be getting any criticism.

    I don't give a flying fig what the real explanation is. I just want to know what it is. What I do know for sure is that, after decades of dominance, the brain-behaviour (i.e. psychosomatic) crowd have completely failed to substantiate their hypothesis, and are doing everything they can to avoid having to face up to that.

    That whole statement is a bunch of nasty dishonest Orwellian crap. Soaked through with misinformation, mischaracterisation, and misdirection from start to finish.
     
    Sean, Mar 27, 2024
    #181
    Mithriel, Snow Leopard, bobbler and 13 others like this.
  2. Arvo

    Arvo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    838
    Ugh, the whole thing is a manipulating, dishonest smear-piece meant to portray this movement as rational, helpful people who are the poor victims of Very Bad People (in order to silence just criticism as unwarranted hostility), instead of the failed mind-over-body ideological crapfest it is, but to further look at just this sentence beyond Sean's excellent comment on it above:
    Note the language. "A trench warfare began" like it fell out of thin air, something that just happened.(Also note e.g. the use of the words "trench warfare" and the vaguely defined "individuals" and "others".)
    Also note how these words and this sentence enforce the frame of an ongoing "controversy"
    (Rule#1 in construct agnotology: create a controversy and keep it alive so bad activities/products can still be pushed because of the appearance of ongoing scientific uncertainty), and how this sentence follows the usual depiction of regular medicine as limited and closeminded pitted against the suggested openmindedness and superiority of a mind-over-body approach.

    And of course the "others" did not just "want to involve the brain and behaviour to a greater extent" - the "to a greater extent" would still be unwarranted, but this is a motte-and-bailey argument that still can't resist to stick in quite some motte: brain and behaviour were claimed as the primary reasons for sickness and disability and the focus points for effective treatment.
     
    Arvo, Mar 28, 2024
    #182
    Sean, rvallee, MEMarge and 7 others like this.
  3. JohnTheJack

    JohnTheJack Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,384
    Coming to this very late, but prompted by the Vink & Vink preprint, I went back to the original.

    Still looking through it but I did find something which I think @dave30th & @George Monbiot and others may find amusing.

    They love to footnote this nonsense with sources. I saw this:

    And

    I couldn't remember Nature doing anything that recent on 'harassment' of ME researchers, so checked the article.

    'challenging health conditions such as myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome' is a link, so I followed that. It's a Guardian article from 2019.

    Yes, one of the authors is quoting himself, except he's doing so by quoting a Nature article which quotes a Guardian article which quotes him.

    Classic Sharpe.
     
    JohnTheJack, Mar 28, 2024
    #183
    rvallee, Sean, SNT Gatchaman and 8 others like this.
  4. Arvo

    Arvo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    838
    Absolutely

    Claim (Me et al where I make the same claim unsubstantiated, year) (My buddy et al who make the same claim substantiating it with a reference to me et al, year.)
     
    Arvo, Mar 28, 2024
    #184
    rvallee, Sean, Trish and 2 others like this.
  5. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,216
    Location:
    Australia
    There is an effective tactic for dealing with vague smears like this: Demand the accusers name the "individuals" and "others" they are accusing.
     
    Sean, Mar 28, 2024
    #185
    Arvo, bobbler, mango and 3 others like this.
  6. jonathan_h

    jonathan_h Established Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    55
    I think it’d be helpful to have examples of this tactic to cite from the history of science (of researchers portraying themselves as dispassionate investigators of a common-sense hypothesis while the group they’re studying, who object to their work and its harms, are doing so because they’re mad/violent). I wonder if this is something ME/CFS Skeptic has encountered in their research on the history of psychosomatic medicine—surely you could find this tactic repeated whenever now-vindicated people dared to protest their dehumanization by Science.
     
    jonathan_h, Mar 29, 2024
    #186
    rvallee, EzzieD, Sean and 4 others like this.
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