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Cardiac Dimensions and Function Are Not Altered among Females with the Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Iversen et al. 2020

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS Research' started by John Mac, Oct 17, 2020.

  1. John Mac

    John Mac Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Michelle, Hutan, Kitty and 9 others like this.
  2. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wonder why echocardiographs. They don't seem to show anything for Long Covid either, only MRIs show something.
  3. Michiel Tack

    Michiel Tack Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Strange that the paper doesn't provide a power calculation.

    With only 16 patients the study was powered to find only large differences. So an evident explanation for a lack of differences may simply that there were too little participants to be able to detect moderate and small differences.
    Simon M, cfsandmore, Amw66 and 7 others like this.
  4. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Can't recall anymore where I read it but seems for some with ME there is an issue of long QT syndrome. Apparently it's super rare so that could translate into not looked for among the people affected. As in people who've been told they don't need tests because the issue is physical but mental.
  5. andypants

    andypants Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Agree with the comments above re: sample size and methodology.

    I do however appreciate the effort to narrow down possible explanations for the increase in lactate. I wish more researchers would do this type of work (and do it better).
    alktipping, Simbindi, Amw66 and 3 others like this.
  6. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That would be an interesting relationship.

    FWIW, a genetic form of long QT syndrome may be rare, but acquired/transient long QT syndrome may be more common. The acquired form can result from certain drugs, including certain classes of antibiotics. Also, low potassium and/or magnesium (hypokalemia / hypomagnesmia ) can result in a lengthening of the QT portion of the EKG. It's known to occur in alcoholics, presumably because alcoholism results in poor nutrition and increased urination, both of which can lead to a loss of electrolytes, including potassium and magnesium. It's dangerous because an excessively long QT interval can devolve into ventricular fibrillation.
  7. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The key word in this abstract is supine. They tested patients at rest, and horizontally. Would there be any change in cardiac function when tilted vertically? In which way cardiac function would be different when vertical, considering that orthostatic intolerance is present in just about 100% of patients?

    eta: it should not be a surprise to find normal tests, particularly the most common tests, at rest.

    i would suspect, if these researchers are bright and really curious, that this may be the first of several papers, with this first one ruling out the obvious and hopefully digging deeper in further papers.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  8. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I had a drug stopped because of the risk of long QT syndrome. I think it is also found in AIDS.

    I did wonder how old the patients were and how long they had been ill. If the heart changes shape because it is struggling then the changes would become more pronounced over time. Dr Cheney found that all his patients had some diastolic heart failure except some teenagers.

    I do not think we get sick or lactate problems because of heart changes, the heart changes are the result of the lactate problems or whatever is causing those.
    alktipping, Simbindi, Forbin and 3 others like this.

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