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Brainstem volume changes in myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome and long COVID patients (Thapaliya et al, 2023)

Discussion in 'ME/CFS research' started by Jaybee00, Mar 3, 2023.

  1. Jaybee00

    Jaybee00 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Abstract

    Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) and long COVID patients have overlapping neurological, autonomic, pain, and post-exertional symptoms. We compared volumes of brainstem regions for 10 ME/CFS (CCC or ICC criteria), 8 long COVID (WHO Delphi consensus), and 10 healthy control (HC) subjects on 3D, T1-weighted MRI images acquired using sub-millimeter isotropic resolution using an ultra-high field strength of 7 Tesla. Group comparisons with HC detected significantly larger volumes in ME/CFS for pons (p = 0.004) and whole brainstem (p = 0.01), and in long COVID for pons (p = 0.003), superior cerebellar peduncle (p = 0.009), and whole brainstem (p = 0.005). No significant differences were found between ME/CFS and long COVID volumes. In ME/CFS, we detected positive correlations between the pons and whole brainstem volumes with “pain” and negative correlations between the midbrain and whole brainstem volumes with “breathing difficulty.” In long COVID patients a strong negative relationship was detected between midbrain volume and “breathing difficulty.” Our study demonstrated an abnormal brainstem volume in both ME/CFS and long COVID consistent with the overlapping symptoms.

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2023.1125208/full
     
  2. hibiscuswahine

    hibiscuswahine Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Important study with the most advanced MRI scanning (that I know of).

    Small but likely to lead to more understanding of brain function in ME and what is going on in the brainstem.

    It appears there is larger volumes of tissue there, ?enlarged because of feedback loops from endothelial and mitochondrial dysfunction in the periphery disrupting ANS. (Just speculating, but science seems to be pulling a lot together recently. I am not sure, but also wondering if this may explain the problems of hypocapnia seen on 2 day CPET’s (if I recall correctly). Would need to read the paper more closely.

    Appears to be a lot of emerging and positive research into structural brain function in ME and LC, (and sharing same pathways in pathophysiology). Though we didn’t have this level of radiographical testing until more recent times.
     
  3. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    From Forebrain control of breathing: Anatomy and potential functions (2022, Frontiers Neurology) —

    ("We propose that the forebrain is important for ensuring that breathing matches current and anticipated behavioral, emotional, and physiological needs.")

     
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  4. Wyva

    Wyva Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don't know if this is the reason in my case but I've had breathing difficulties since the start of my disease, even though my triggering illness had zero respiratoy symptoms. The breathing difficulty (the feeling of not enough air coming in despite normal breathing) for me is unrelated to current ongoing exertion (of course it can make it worse but that's not what starts it) and is related to how I feel in general, it fluctuates together with my other symptoms. When I was at my worst, I felt I would almost suffocate at times when I had to speak and give short answers quickly. And a few times I kind of felt like that even without speaking. One of the first signs for me that I'm starting to feel better is that I can suddenly feel more air coming in.
     
  5. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Hmm, Barnden is a good researcher, but, as the research team acknowledges, the sample sizes are small. Also, the gender ratios are a bit skewed, there are a higher proportion of women in the healthy controls than in the LC and ME/CFS cohorts. I expect they adjust brain volumes for males/females, but then the adjustment is a potential source of error.

    The researchers suggest that the increased brainstem and pons volumes might be due to these factors.

    I find pain and breathing difficulties rather odd choices of measures of severity; I would have thought that an overall quality of life or measure of incapacity might have been better. The researchers had a whole lot of measures available to them, so I wonder if perhaps these two symptoms were the only ones that happened to correlate well with some of the brain measures?
    If you look at Figure 3A-D which plot the individual results, the results are rather underwhelming and there is further selectivity about what is shown. For example for 3B which is pain vs brain stem volume, we are only shown the ME/CFS results, and you only need to ignore a couple of results to end up with pretty much no relationship at all between pain and brainstem. The results for breathing difficulty vs midbrain volume don't look that convincing to me. If you take one point away from each of the charts for ME/CFS and LC, there isn't much of a relationship.

    I find the lack of variability in the ME/CFS volumes in Figure 2 a bit odd.

    I think we need to see this study repeated in a larger cohort before we get too excited that there is something real here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2023
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  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They show about a 10-20% higher value in pons and brainstem for ME than controls. That is about as much as one could credibly expect I think, so not trivial. It would make a lot of sense if brainstem was abnormal in ME and one would probably expect it to be bigger rather than smaller.

    I doubt this is inflammation. If it was then I think someone would have seen a change in signal before. It might be an increase in glial cells of one sort or another. I think it is much more likely to be primary than secondary to peripheral nervous signals from vessels or muscles.

    It ought to be very simple to repeat this. If it replicates I think we may be a quantum leap ahead. But it has to replicate in good studies, read blind, with good numbers.
     
  7. Robert 1973

    Robert 1973 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  8. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Improving Accuracy of Brainstem MRI Volumetry: Effects of Age and Sex, and Normalization Strategies
    That paper found that estimated brainstem volumes didn't change much with the scanner or protocol used. From a sample of 110 people:
    Using these figures, the LC and ME/CFS results from this new study are looking more normal (23,000 and 23,000 respectively) than those of the healthy controls (19,000).

    Here's the results of another study of people with MS and healthy controls:
    So, still, the LC and ME/CFS volumes are looking more normal.

    A malfunctioning brainstem would make sense in terms of some symptoms, and maybe it is the most vulnerable part of the brain to impacts of infection. It's not an unreasonable idea. But, with such small samples and the reported brain volumes in this new study not appearing to be larger than we might expect in normal brains, I'm just not sure we are seeing a real effect.
     
  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Screen Shot 2023-03-04 at 2.23.54 am.png
    Here's another sample of normal brainstem volume in 182 healthy subjects. x axis is age. Sorry for the poor quality image. Most people had brainstem volumes between 22.5 and 27.5 cm3 (1 ml = 1 cm3).

    Maybe there was something unusual about the measurement approach in the Thapaliya study?
     
  10. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    We have a thread on breathlessness and air hunger in ME, where more of us report not getting enough air/at least feeling like we don't get enough air: Breathlessness and air hunger in ME/CFS
     
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  11. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    The above paper about polio survivors concluded:
    There's this 2020 review which did not report evidence for increased brainstem volume.
    Neuroimaging characteristics of ME/CFS: a systematic review. Shan et al. 2020
    Specifically, there is the supplementary table with summaries for each study. There are studies with conflicting results on the brainstem volume question.
    Also this review covering similar ground:
    Using structural and functional MRI as a neuroimaging technique to investigate CFS/ME. Almutairi et al. 2020
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  13. Hubris

    Hubris Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's good, but if we don't make replication happen, it will be ignored and forgotten like every other small ME study to date. No neurologist will look at this and think "hmm, this seems significant we should try to replicate it". They only care about visible MRI lesions and focal symptoms. ME doesn't have neither so it has been declared to be a fake illness a long time ago.

    If we don't get together and make it happen (like we did with decodeME) it simply won't. This approach of "wait and hope it gets replicated" from a class of people that keep openly showing hostility towards us is not a good strategy. We cannot expect their help. I have tried in the past to involve local neurologists for a 7T MRI study (as i do think this area has untapped potential) and i was basically told to fuck off.
     
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  14. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Indeed. Both those reviews I linked to reported that past studies have been too small and otherwise flawed. There needs to be funding for sufficiently well powered studies.
     
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  15. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Referencing Hyperintense sensorimotor T1 spin echo MRI is associated with brainstem abnormality in CFS (2018) with its follow-on Anti-Correlated Myelin-Sensitive MRI Levels in Humans Consistent with a Subcortical to Sensorimotor Regulatory Process—Multi-Cohort Multi-Modal Evidence (2022), as well as Brainstem perfusion is impaired in chronic fatigue syndrome (1995) [Sci-Med].

    (T1wSE = T1-weighted spin-echo MRI sequence. In this context high signal indicates fat / lipid / myelin.)

    From the 2018 paper —
    From the 2022 paper —
    The 1995 nuclear medicine paper used older technology, SPET with 99mTc-HMPAO and said —
    Typically you'd expect loss of myelin (demyelination) to reduce brain volume. Eg from Lesion activity and chronic demyelination are the major determinants of brain atrophy in MS (2019)

    Traditionally the term demyelination indicates previously normal myelin that is damaged (eg in MS). Dysmyelination is when the myelin does not form correctly. Usually dysmyelinating disorders are seen in inborn errors of metabolism eg leukodystrophies, although practically speaking in those conditions I think it's now considered that there is often a combination of de- and dys-myelination.

    These combined findings (if replicated) of reduced myelin signal but increased volume in the brainstem make me wonder whether there is an acquired process that is somewhere between dysmyelination and demyelination. I.e. that the myelin was previously normal but becomes impaired, though not destroyed, similar to if it had been malformed initially. However, rather than relating to cerebral blood flow and oxygen delivery (which might be completely orthogonal or at least indirectly related) I'd be more thinking about abnormal lipid metabolism, which is very important for myelin.

    See Myelin lipid metabolism and its role in myelination and myelin maintenance (2022), which has subsections on —
    • Myelin maintenance is an active process
    • Continual and frequent myelin lipid self-renewal is necessary for myelin maintenance
    • Leukodystrophies highlight an intersection between lipid dysmetabolism and myelin pathology
    • Myelin instability and lipid dysregulation are featured in Alzheimer’s disease
    Concluding —
    Perhaps there is locally increased quantity as a compensation for decreased quality, so more volume but lower lipid signal?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  16. livinglighter

    livinglighter Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @SNT Gatchaman would the brainstem problems you’ve highlighted be detectable using brainstem auditory evoked response testing (BAER or ABR)?

    I noticed that within the 2007 CFS/ME guideline, the test was explicitly mentioned not to be routinely provided which I thought was odd given the symptoms such as tinnitus that pwME experience.

    I’m revisiting the potentials of the test. So far, it turns out that within neurology, it is used to detect anatomic disturbances of the brainstem auditory pathways, especially those caused by myelin disruption.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0733861918308429

    ABRs are also commonly abnormal in brainstem disorders such as multiple sclerosis, brainstem stroke, or brainstem degenerative disorders. To detect brainstem dysfunction, the test requires an otoneurologist to interpret the results.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2023
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  17. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I had a brainstem evoked response audiometry(BERA) test in 1993 because I had vertigo. It was normal.
     
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  18. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don't know anywhere near enough about ABR to comment on that, but it might be a good area for investigation. It may be that these findings are giving us a clue about problems that can be more widespread in the brain. Or maybe there are more common regions of vulnerability.

    Having read through the myelination review paper, I think it's worthwhile posting it separately for discussion, as it seems to me that acquired deficits of myelination relating to impairments of lipid metabolism could quite elegantly explain aspects of brain fog, hypersensitivities and other neurological symptoms we can experience — and in particular their variable nature. In other words, with the principle that function depends on structure, this could be the structural abnormality that explains "functional" neurological disorders. I'll make a separate thread on this later today.

    ETA: Thread on Myelin lipid metabolism and its role in myelination and myelin maintenance (2022)
    ETA2: See also this post in the thread: Brainstem Abnormalities in [ME/CFS]: A Scoping Review and Evaluation of Magnetic Resonance Imaging Findings (2021).
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2023
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  19. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Moved post

    An article about the recent Griffith MRI study.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2023
  20. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Long Covid Brain Changes Mirror Those of Chronic Fatigue, Brain Scans Reveal

    "Long COVID and myalgic encephalomyelitis/ chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) both seem to impact the oldest parts of the brain in a curiously similar fashion.

    Using a high-resolution version of magnetic resonance imaging ( MRI), researchers in Australia have shown the brainstem regions of 10 ME/CFS patients and 8 long COVID patients are significantly larger than those of 10 healthy control subjects."

    https://www.sciencealert.com/long-c...r-those-of-chronic-fatigue-brain-scans-reveal

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