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Are Circulating FGF21 and NT-proBNP promising novel biomarkers in ME/CFS, 2020, Joan Charles Domingo et al

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS Research' started by John Mac, Dec 23, 2020.

  1. John Mac

    John Mac Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Full title:
    Are Circulating FGF21 and NT-proBNP promising novel biomarkers in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?



    https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/ars.2020.8230
     
  2. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    FGF21
    Source is Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
    merylg, Hutan, sebaaa and 7 others like this.
  3. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Animal studies are a waste of time, money and lives. I have spent years studying this.
     
  4. Michiel Tack

    Michiel Tack Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Do you have any links to articles or suggested reading on this? Would be interesting to have an overview article of how often results in animal studies do or do not translate to trials in humans.
     
    sebaaa and alktipping like this.
  5. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm confused - the abstract is about ME/CFS patients and controls. Where do the mice come in?
     
  6. Andy

    Andy Committee Member (& Outreach when energy allows)

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    Small holes and gaps???
     
  7. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    :rofl:
     
  8. Andy

    Andy Committee Member (& Outreach when energy allows)

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    Sci hub link, https://sci-hub.se/10.1089/ars.2020.8230

    Fukuda selection criteria.
     
  9. leokitten

    leokitten Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Dead end. I know it’s just my case but I had NT-proBNP measured as part of a battery of cardiovascular procedures and tests to look at my heart and the NT-proBNP results were almost zero.

    Unfortunately, I was only able to get these tests in my third year or so of illness and wished I was able to examine this when I was having the heart arrhythmia issues triggered by the viral infection in the first year. They couldn’t find anything wrong with my heart after the arrhythmia mostly went away.
     
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  10. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Here is a link to a PR blogpost on the subject: Cancer researcher slams requirement for animal models | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

    There are several others. I can't write them now.

    Animal studies almost always fail in humans.
     
  11. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    In the second post, by @Michiel Tack.
     
    alktipping likes this.
  12. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    To be fair animal studies of normal organ function (like immune cells) have been essential to the development of a wide range of life saving treatments. What has been a huge waste of time is animal models of disease causation.
     
    Dolphin, merylg, Simbindi and 13 others like this.
  13. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    As the virologists and immunogists on TWIV microbe TV point out:

    "Mice lie and monkeys exaggerate" in experiments destined for human beings. That said, how else is one to start?

    For new therapeutic molecules, basic safety and probable dosage is always tested on animals first. Lab science knows a lot about mice.
     
    Dolphin, alktipping and Helene like this.
  14. J.G

    J.G Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    My serum FGF-21 was tested some three years ago by a London, UK immunology lab as part of a study on mitochondrial dysfunction. My serum FGF-21 levels were found to be "very low". I was told that Oxford had also seen very low levels in adult patients with MECFS. The researchers had no explanation.
     
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  15. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Very interesting.
     
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  16. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @J.G do you have poor fasting tolerance?
     
    alktipping likes this.
  17. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    It is interesting. But these two results (both in blood) seem at odds with each other.
     
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  18. J.G

    J.G Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    They are indeed. FGF-21 - I was told in writing - is under ongoing investigation as a potential biomarker for certain mitochondrial disorders where it is found in elevated levels. FGF-21 is also found elevated in some patients with *defined* respiratory chain defects.

    Which, taken together, begs the question whether the patients in this Spanish MECFS study cohort suffer from actual core / true MECFS, or from a mitochondrial defect manifesting in a similar way. Alternatively, there could be separate ME cohorts, one with low FGF-21 of unknown etiology, one with sharply elevated FGF-21. Or perhaps PEM accounts for the difference, somehow.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2020
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  19. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    There's this 2013 study:
    Mild Cold Exposure Modulates Fibroblast Growth Factor 21 (FGF21) Diurnal Rhythm in Humans: Relationship between FGF21 Levels, Lipolysis, and Cold-Induced Thermogenesis
    https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/98/1/E98/2823412

    It suggests that FGF21 varies a lot over the day (at 24 degrees C: 110 pg/ml at 8 am, to 41 at 5 pm).
    It also suggests that FGF21 varies with ambient temperature (lower temperature decreased variation but increased overall levels).
    So, controlling for time of day and ambient temperature seems important when measuring FGF21. (I can't access the 2020 study paper, so I don't know what they did.)

     
  20. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    @strategist, can you add the source of those quotes to your post, please? They are causing some confusion.
     
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