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Animal Models of ME/CFS

Discussion in 'Other research methodology topics' started by Simone, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A friend who sees a highly respected Endo told me that there is an ME engineered mouse at a Canadian University waiting to be studied. That's all I know.
    upload_2019-6-6_18-10-16.png
     
  2. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They'd better get in quick before it's 'cured' using LP or CBT/GET, as will be easily determined by it getting a different, or the same, SF36 score than it manages the first time.

    Possibly that in itself could be a cure, scurrying around on SF36 forms with inky paws?

    (Then all we'd need is surgery to give us paws and we'd be 'cured')
     
  3. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Poor mouse :(
     
  4. wigglethemouse

    wigglethemouse Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Simone I know this is not about a mouse model of ME/CFS but here is an excerpt from the 2018 Stanford Symposium about possibly modelling the IDO metabolic trap in cells and the different ways you can perform an experiment not easy to do in humans.
    Source : https://www.omf.ngo/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Edited-Ronald-W-Davis-Whats-Next.pdf

    The OMF had a Livestream of Millions Missing San Francisco recently in May of Ron Davis talking about various topics and he said that that week he had just hired a scientist to work on yeast and if I remember right to test drugs and create compounds (some of which are produced by bacteria in the gut). I wonder if he will also look at modelling the IDO trap in yeast as was brainstormed? I thought there was a post on his MillionsMissing talk somewhere but I can't find it. H
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  5. Simone

    Simone Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks, @wigglethemouse. I’m not familiar with that Gulf War research. Do you happen to know any of the researchers, so I can look it up?
     
  6. sea

    sea Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Just googling “gulf war illness mouse” turns up several likely candidates to follow up.
     
  7. wigglethemouse

    wigglethemouse Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yep, that's exactly what I did too!

    Nancy Klimas studies GWI and has used one of the mouse models whose immune expression closely resembled a subset of GWI patients. She also said she intends to create an ME/CFS mouse model.
     
  8. wigglethemouse

    wigglethemouse Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Simone Here is the Klimas mouse reference for ME/CFS from Dec 2018
    Thread : https://www.s4me.info/threads/donating-to-klimas-clinical-trial.7330/#post-132288
     
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  9. Simone

    Simone Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  10. Lisa108

    Lisa108 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sorry, couldn't resist...

    What a mouse model of ME/CFS would look like:

    rw0300fy55331.jpg
     
  11. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am somehow reminded of this mouse i had posted in another thread a while back
    steampunk_flying_mouse_by_ghost_horse-d3178zw.jpg
     
  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I feel sure that there must be similar post-infectious fatiguing illnesses in animals; it seems highly unlikely that humans would be special in this. If we could find just one, it could give us an animal model.

    There's this 2021 report about a ferret model for Covid-19 -
    Dose-dependent response to infection with SARS-CoV-2 in the ferret model and evidence of protective immunity
    They didn't actually identify anything like ME/CFS, but they had small samples and (despite what they say above) they weren't actually looking for 'post viral fatigue' - I think they just think that they can assess it. They were assessing alertness and playfulness. Also, they assessed ruffled fur, as apparently a sick animal stops grooming itself. There are also ways to assess how active animals are.

    I wonder if any Covid-19 researcher using animal models has looked for PVFS so far. I've sent this team an email.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  13. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I've been searching to see if anyone has been looking at Long Covid with animal models. I haven't found any so far, but this paper at least acknowledged that it will be something to prioritise once vaccines are rolled out.

    Animal models of COVID‐19 hyper‐inflammation, 2020
     
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  14. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    The more I think about this, the more I am sure that ME/CFS must affect animals. It seems unlikely that a whole lot of diseases, as diverse as bacteria and virus can seem to trigger ME/CFS in humans without there being similar post-infection things going on in at least some animals. There are a whole range of coronaviruses that affect animals for example.

    The problem is, how to identify such cases? Animals with ME/CFS in the wild are likely to be predated. Many pets lie around all day as it is; they may not face physical stresses that make ME/CFS obvious, and owners may just assume that the animal is lazy or getting old. It may not be investigated, and, if it is and nothing is easily found, investigations might stop (in much the same way as they do with us), and never be reported.

    It seems to me that the easiest way to identify ME/CFS in animals is to talk with vets treating production animals or animals used in high-performance roles. So, I think vets treating dairy cattle, racing horses, racing greyhounds, sled dogs and the like might have some ideas, especially after outbreaks of novel infections. A problem of course is that often such animals will be killed fairly quickly, and the chronic lethargy might be put down to tissue damage without a whole lot of investigation. Zookeepers and zoo vets looking after primate colonies in zoos might have noticed something.
     
  15. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am not so sure. A whole lot of infections trigger Reiter's syndrome in humans but I am not aware of Reiter's being described in animals. Interestingly the closest thing to Reiter's in animals is a disease produced by making rodents transgenic for one particular human HLA allele - B27. And of course ankylosing spondylitis is not just unique to humans it is pretty much unique to humans carrying HLA-B27.

    The problem about asking vets is that most of them make diagnoses on the hoof (so to speak) on the basis of even less evidence than physicians. No animal is likely to go through all the tests needed to exclude other causes of whatever PEM might look like in that species.

    One or two vets are very astute about pathogenesis. David Bennett took an interest in autoimmune rheumatic disease and studied lupus in certain breeds of dog - but because lupus is only found in one or two breeds. Most dogs never get it.
     
  16. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    It is possible that ME/CFS is specific to humans, although, if there really are subsets of ME/CFS, then that makes it even less likely that all the versions of ME/CFS are unique to humans. If, as seems possible, pathogens are altering the host's immune system in order to make the environment conducive to their ongoing existence and replication, I think it's really unlikely that the pathogens are only using that strategy in humans. Even if ME/CFS is just an unfortunate consequence of a pathogen going about its business that confers no advantage to the pathogen, there are animals that are a lot like us that suffer from infections of some of the same pathogens.

    Even if ME/CFS is a psychosomatic disease, I would expect it to occur in at least the higher primates. Many animals experience horrendous trauma. Humans aren't as special as we often like to think.

    Sure, lots of vets just go through the motions, as do many doctors. But many have facilities in house to analyse blood tests immediately, and they use them routinely. When our dogs got anaplasma infections, it was diagnosed immediately by the vet in Borneo, who looked at the blood under a microscope. It took me well over a year of campaigning after getting ME/CFS to be tested for anaplasma - my doctor in Australia had not previously heard of it.

    Yes, animals won't get put through loads of tests, but if 10% of a dairy herd was struggling to walk to the milking shed for 6 months, that would be enough to prompt quite an investigative effort. There's the example of the 'Go slow' illness in dogs identified by a vet.

    The global One Health movement aims to have scientists and clinicians of all sorts talking to each other more to reduce the risks from infectious diseases. In googling for this post, I see that one of the members of the NZ One Health group is interested in Long Covid
    I think that getting vets to consider the issue increases the chances that some clues come to light. Maybe Dr Michael Maze might be able to help - I'll try to talk to him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  17. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But I think the evidence shows that this does not turn out to be relevant. The best known chronic sequel of infection in humans in Reiter's and only a small percentage of even humans appear to have the immune equipment necessary to generate the illness. Similarly, I believe it is now considered that 90% or so of humans are incapable of getting multiple sclerosis. You have to have certain gene alleles even to have a chance of getting it.

    My understanding is that a lot of the chronic conditions involving immune and nervous systems in humans relate to built in 'bugs' in complex regulatory software and are specific to our species and most often to genetic subsets of our species only.

    It is also highly likely that some of these chronic illnesses have survived in humans because of our social support network. If they occurred de novo in wild animal populations the negative survival impact would be likely to clear them from the population in a few generations. In the days when I modelled disease causation I reckoned that for diseases with a mixed polygenic/stochasitc aetiology, which applies to a lot of autoimmune disease the tolerated rate for a chronic illness would be likely to be no more than 1:1000 to 1:200 in humans. For wild animal species I think it would be less so pretty hard to find. Diseases tend to get recognised in domestic animals when they have been bred in to inbred pedigree populations - like hip dysplasia in labradors and lupus in King Charles spaniels.
     
  18. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Horses apparently get something like ME, but it's hard to ask them about PEM, etc. It could just be overtraining or post-viral fatigue.
     
  19. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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  20. josepdelafuente

    josepdelafuente Established Member (Voting Rights)

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