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Advice on mask-wearing to protect against Covid-19

Discussion in 'Epidemics (including Covid-19, not Long Covid)' started by Hip, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    726
    Western medical authorities and the WHO have repeatedly stated that the populace do not need to wear masks or respirators, and that for the general public these offer no protection from coronavirus.

    The WHO say:
    Source: here

    It's rather annoying when scientists hide behind deceptive statements like that; technically the statement may be correct, there may be no specific evidence; but even a halfwit will tell you that if masks are vitally important for protecting doctors and nurses in a hospital, then they are almost certainly going to be useful when an infected person coughs in your face in a crowded Underground train or bus.

    Avoiding mask shortages for frontline medical workers was probably the main reason for making such less than truthful, deceptive statements. They no doubt wanted to prevent panic buying of masks.

    But rather than tell white lies, a better option might have been to get industry to make billions masks on an emergency schedule, so that there would be enough for everybody. We could have started this at least two months ago, when containment of Chinese coronavirus epidemic looked like it might be touch and go.

    If you think about it, coronavirus only generally transmits if it enters the mouth, nose or eyes, so it's quite extraordinary that with our high-tech and high-output manufacturing capabilities, we have not organized ourselves supply suitable mask protection for the populace that prevents the virus from getting into these areas.



    One mathematical modeling study determined that if 80% of the population were to wear masks, this would stop an influenza outbreak in its tracks. That's only a mathematical model, but it's interesting to note that in Hong Kong, which was not that far from the pandemic epicenter but has only had 4 deaths so far (cf: London's 600 deaths), 97.5% of the adult population wears masks when leaving the house. Ref: 1

    So it's possible if everyone had a proper mask or respirator and was made to wear it by law, we might be able to halt or dramatically slow this pandemic. But instead we partially close down the entire world economy to control coronavirus spread, at a cost of $trillions.



    According to one paper, you don't need expensive respirators: simple surgical masks were just as effective as respirators in preventing influenzavirus transmission in hospitals.

    And if you cannot get hold of a surgical mask or respirator, one study found that a mask made from a cotton T-shirt filtered viral particles to some extent, but is not as effectively as a surgical mask (51% filtering efficiency for the T-shirt, versus 89% efficiency for the surgical mask).

    Filtration of viral particles is not the only function of a mask though: a mask will also stop you from touching your mouth and nose, which helps prevent viral transmission. And it will stop large droplets that are ballistically ejected from an infected person's mouth (when they are talking or coughing) from directly landing on your mouth and nose. Plus if you yourself are infected, a mask stops you from ballistically ejecting such droplets.

    Remember, to halt an epidemic you do not necessarily need 100% foolproof protection; you just have to reduce the transmission so that each infected person on average infects less than 1 other person.



    This CNN article comes to the conclusion that:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  2. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    676
    One also needs to know how to put on and take off the mask.

    Use the earloops to put the mask on and off. If you have a stash of isolation masks and are using those, pinch the nose piece so it fits closely over your nose. Whatever mask you have, fit it as closely to the face as possible.

    Don't touch the front of the mask after wearing (or wash hands immediately); it has likely caught contagions and is considered contaminated.

    If you have cloth masks, dry them on a hot setting in the tumble dryer.

    In short, yes, it seems reasonable enough to wear any mask you can come by but wash your hands. All the time. Wash surfaces, knobs, and commonly-touched items.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health...in-public-health-experts-revisit-the-question

    https://www.chp.gov.hk/files/pdf/use_mask_properly.pdf

    https://www.wired.com/story/its-time-to-face-facts-america-masks-work/

    ETA: in the US, it's harder to get the medical masks because we don't have the raw materials for the water-resistant layer.

    But clothing manufacturers are reported to prep for making cloth masks, and as Hip posted they can be made at home. If you can't make your own you can buy on Etsy.

    Everyone with a sewing machine is making either to donate or to sell, in my area. A fabric store has been giving away fabric and patterns, but they say they've sold a lot, too.
     
  3. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,159
    Location:
    Australia
    For the general population masks are not to stop you being infected by other people, it is to stop other people being infected by you.
     
  4. JaneL

    JaneL Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    364
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    According to The Guardian, the World Health Organisation is now considering changing it’s guidance on wearing face masks:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...patients-should-wear-masks-says-doctors-group
     
  5. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,458
    Location:
    London, UK
    I think this is a really crucial point that may turn the tide.

    I think this is the key point. And it has probably been most people's justification for not wearing a mask (I don't have Covid, so why bother).

    But it struck me that we should reverse the (perfectly valid) point:
    to note that Every virus that causes a case of Covid19 has come out of someone's mouth.
    It stands to reason that putting a mask in front of every mouth to stop virus getting into the air or on to surfaces is likely to help.

    Although air is going to get round the corners of a mask when you breath in my guess is that it is much less likely that significant sized droplets will get out round the corners without hitting the mask. I doubt it makes much difference how well it is made.
     
    mango, alktipping, Starlight and 25 others like this.
  6. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    7,159
    Location:
    Australia
    The big problem with Covid-19 is that people are infectious during the asymptomatic phase (5-6 days, which is plenty of time to spread it around).

    Surface decontamination is manageable, if a pain. But masks are the only realistic and sustainable population-level option we currently have to deal with direct airborne transmission. Production of basic masks suitable for the job has the advantage of being cheap and quickly scalable.

    Get the now unemployed fashion and advertising industries onto it. Make masks the latest must-have.

    :ninja: :bag: :cool:
     
    alktipping, Forbin, AliceLily and 6 others like this.
  7. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

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    I thought even quite a poor mask would reduce the chance of getting it. Even if it only reduces it by say 10% that still helps flatten the infection curve and reduce R0. Coupled with the stopping the wearer spreading an infection this could lead to a noticeable reduction in R0.
     
    Starlight, AliceLily, FMMM1 and 9 others like this.
  8. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,159
    Location:
    Australia
    True, at the population level 10% is not a small number.

    Though masks on the infected is where the big payoff will be. If we can get everybody wearing masks, that is.
     
  9. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,486
    Location:
    UK
    The other side of mask wearing could be peoples perception of risk. If people feel safe in a mask then they may not keep a safe distance away. I noticed this when shopping last week in that some of those wearing masks failed to keep their distance.
     
  10. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    3,780
    Location:
    UK
    I wonder if proper explanation would help - that the masks give you no protection, but are to protect others. I wonder what has happened in other countries in terms of masks and messaging and whether people in masks have maintained social distance.
     
    MEMarge, AliceLily, ahimsa and 6 others like this.
  11. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

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    6,486
    Location:
    UK
  12. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,486
    Location:
    UK
    Yes its about telling people it reduces risk rather than removes it.
     
    MEMarge, ladycatlover, JaneL and 7 others like this.
  13. TrixieStix

    TrixieStix Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    245
    If 25%-50% of those infected with coronavirus remain asymptomatic during the entire infection & are spreading the virus then it seems obvious that we should all be wearing masks. I have faith that the public can be learn the do's and don'ts of masking wearing.

    https://ktla.com/news/coronavirus/2...tomatic-but-can-infect-others-new-data-shows/
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    MEMarge, mango, ladycatlover and 2 others like this.
  14. TrixieStix

    TrixieStix Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
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    A significant % may remain asymptomatic during their entire infection and be spreading it.

    https://ktla.com/news/coronavirus/2...tomatic-but-can-infect-others-new-data-shows/
     
    MEMarge, ScottTriGuy and Sean like this.
  15. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    2,816
    Yes, but where can you buy a mask? Plenty on amazon but delivery is by end of April, end of May or June!
     
  16. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    6,682
    Location:
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    'normal' price for 50 masks - £3 - so 6p each (plus p&P whatever that is) - out of stock
    https://www.medisave.co.uk/surgeons-face-mask-with-loops-per-50.html
    the only place I can find in the UK selling them, that isn't 'suspicious' and is likely to arrive in a useful timescale
    https://www.clearance-king.co.uk/di...face-mask-priced-individually-no-returns.html
    minimum order 100 @60p each = £60
    (Now no longer taking orders, although they were earlier today when I first found them, despite claiming to have 15000 in stock)

    I do not trust any of the sellers on ebay or amazon, bad reviews, coming from China in a few months time, or simply stuff not turning up/not as described.

    Even medical supply companies are not being helpful.
     
  17. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Surely the govt shouldn't be leaving citizens to scramble around to get masks but should be instructing industry to mass-produce them - while prioritising frontline workers and patient for the top-quality ones that require the special fabric. And then the govt should surely be distributing the masks, door-to-door.
     
    ladycatlover, FMMM1, Chezboo and 4 others like this.
  18. Simbindi

    Simbindi Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I would challenge that official statement by the WHO and various medical authorities in the West. Masks certainly do protect others, but I would guess likely protect the wearer too during a pandemic.

    I believe it clouds our thinking to accept the official statement that implies masks offer no protection to the wearer. When I first heard that statement months ago, my thought was that it's probably not true, but is being said for good reasons: to protect the supply of masks for frontline health workers.

    So I guess unconsciously agreed with the statement, because I could see that even if false, it was being said to help the frontline medics. The same implicit acceptance of this (potentially wrong) statement has probably occurred in many people's minds, including in decision-making politicians and journalists.

    But if you read the WHO's statement properly, it says we actually have no evidence of whether public mask wearing is of benefit or not during a pandemic, because nobody has formally tested this. Which means public mask wearing could well be very helpful. So really the WHO should say that.


    I just think that because many key decision-makers in the West have assumed the WHO's statement means masks cannot help stop this pandemic, the idea of mass producing masks is not on the table.

    So the WHO's statement, although made for very good reasons, may potentially be misleading and damaging in terms of trying to control this pandemic. I don't know any Western leaders who are thinking in terms of massively ramping up mask production. We are focused on ramping up ventilator production, but nobody is thinking about masks for the general public.

    In Taiwan, they greatly ramped up their mask production as a response to the pandemic, so that everyone in the country was well supplied with them, and are now producing so many masks that they plan to donate millions to the West. So far in Taiwan, there have only been 5 deaths.
     
  20. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Mask may offer 'herd protection' in that if enough people wear them then less virus is spread, even to those without a mask (provided they are not currently infected).

    And it's probably not fatal to wear a mask, so an improvement over 'herd immunity' in that regard.

    All we need now is masks that don;t make your nose itch.
     

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