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Abnormal changes during Tilt Table Test in ME/CFS patients are NOT related to deconditioning

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS Research' started by Lisa108, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Lisa108

    Lisa108 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This study was posted today on the German 'ME -Pacing mit Pulsuhr'-Facebook page:

    The Abnormal Cardiac Index and Stroke Volume Index Changes During a Normal Tilt Table Test in ME/CFS Patients Compared to Healthy Volunteers, are Not Related to Deconditioning

    C.(Linda) M.C. van Campen,Frans C. Visser*

    Department of Cardiology,Stichting Cardiozorg, Planetenweg, Netherlands

    Free access link here, just click through the buttons 'Abstract', 'Article', 'Figures', 'Tables', 'References', and 'Suggested Citation'.

    It seems as if this will be published in the 'Journal of Thrombosis and Circulation'.
     
  2. obeat

    obeat Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    150 patients, a decent number.
     
  3. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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  4. James

    James Established Member (Voting Rights)

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  5. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Merged thread

    MEA Summary Review: Cardiac abnormalities in ME/CFS not due to deconditioning | 26 November 2018

    by Charlotte Stephens, Research Correspondent, ME Association. Nov. 2018.

    https://www.meassociation.org.uk/20...s-not-due-to-deconditioning-26-november-2018/

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2018
  6. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  7. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    taken from the MEA review
     
  8. Liessa

    Liessa Established Member (Voting Rights)

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  9. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I like the way this disputes earlier research findings, that interpreted lower heart stroke volumes and output as being due to deconditoning, thereby feeding the whole "unhelpful illness beliefs" BPS pantomime. If they are right in saying "The decrease in SVI and CI were similar and not significantly different between the mild, moderate, and severe ME groups", and that there would be significant differences if deconditiong was the cause ... then that is another nail in the coffin of the PACE hypothesis presumably, and all it implies.
     
    Simbindi, MeSci, andypants and 12 others like this.
  10. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Is this the only paper indicating that OI in ME isn't due to deconditioning that has come out within the past year? I seem to remember something else but might be mistaken.

    @Trish - tagging you because I think you keep up with all this! :)
     
    MEMarge likes this.
  11. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Sorry, I don't remember. I tried a search but didn't find one.
     
    Sasha likes this.
  12. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks! I was wondering if it was a Systrom thing, but seem to think it was something else.
     
    adambeyoncelowe likes this.
  13. sea

    sea Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    “Stroke volumes and cardiac output were related to the severity of the disease.”

    “The absence of differences between patients with mild, moderate, and severe ME/CFS suggests...”

    Sorry haven’t read the paper yet, but, don’t these 2 statements contradict each other? What am I missing?
     
  14. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maybe they mean that the CI and SVI contribute to disability in ME, but don't track with the different severity types. So they make the disease severe, but they don't vary if the disease is more severe. If so, it's very poor wording on their choice.
     
    NelliePledge likes this.
  15. Liessa

    Liessa Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think I may have found the answer to your question. I think the first statement refers to an action (seeing how these factors relate to one another), and the second to the outcome.

    The last paragraph of section 4 explains how they went about things, which I can link to the first of your sentences which is part of the 'background' section:

    "Moreover, it has been suggested that the larger cardiac output and stroke volume decrease in ME/CFS patients compared to HV was due to deconditioning [9]. As disease severity is inversely related physical functioning [28], the disease severity was correlated with the stroke volume and cardiac output changes." - correlated is an action too in this case.

    With more severe patients being less active, you'd expect a bigger change in these measures if they are 'due to deconditioning', but this wasn't the case. Hence the conclusion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019

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