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We need new kinds of antidepressants, in addition to pills

Discussion in 'Health News and Research unrelated to ME/CFS' started by Alvin, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...-prozac-social-environmental-connections-hari
     
  2. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    4,333
    Location:
    UK
    I think that's appalling!

    I've suffered from depression, much of it severe, for most of my life. When I look back over my life I think the depression was justified. Taking an anti-depressant didn't change the reasons for the depression, all it did was dull my emotions. I vastly improved when I started treating my own hypothyroidism. And no anti-depressant in the world is going to replace missing thyroid hormones.

    Edit : Improving my basic nutrient levels with supplements helped a lot too. And of course, anti-depressants won't fix a low iron level or low vitamin D.
     
    Starlight, oldtimer, JaimeS and 8 others like this.
  3. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    8,750
    Location:
    UK West Midlands
    i had persistent low mood aka mild depression diagnosis and was on anti depressants for 15 years entirely due to grief over parent existing with severe dementia. Im not taking anti depressants any more as very quickly after my parent died I felt the weight of those feelings lifted off me and went to see GP about stopping ADs. In hindsight im not convinced the anti depressants contributed anything, counselling very definitely did and I still have counselling sessions.
     
  4. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    2,837
    The article is interesting and troubling at the same time.

    Sure, I agree that a lot of what is classed as depression and medicated for is just distress due to circumstances. When I first got ill, I was very upset about the loss of my life. After two years of really incapacitating illness (most of it spent in bed), I went to see a doctor and burst into tears as I tried to describe what my life had become. The doc immediately prescribed prozac. I knew this was wrong.

    But also, I find this article swings too far in the opposite direction. Its seems to claim there's no such thing as 'endogenous' depression (depression not tied to your life circumstances). That in every case of depression, there's a history of previous distressing events, if you look hard enough.

    If you look hard enough.

    Yes, well, that's the old childhood adversity fallacy again, isn't it? If you look hard enough at anyone's life you will be able to find adversity and distress.

    I think this perspective is dangerous as it denies there is a severe condition called depression that is gut wrenchingly devastating and that cannot be properly addressed by just changing the person's life circumstances. Some people with depression will tell you that a major change in their lifestyle can give them temporary relief, but the depression always catches up to them in the end.

    A friend of mine, who I never knew suffered from depression, once explained this is the reason he moved jobs and countries so often.
     
  5. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    3,309
    Yet we can't prove there is any biochemical imbalance, neuroinflammation, genetic defects or whatever shiny new theory is proposed. But that never stops the belief that it must be physical in some form because easy answers carry much appeal (and lots of money backing them).
    Running from your problems can give you some relief but the problems catch up to you. That doesn't prove its physical, that indicates running away is not the answer.
    And how can running away fix genetic defects or neuroinflammation temporarily anyways?

    Its dangerous because it challenges the established order
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  6. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    2,837
    Isn't this exactly what is said about MECFS? If there was a biological abnormality beneath it, we would have found it by now? All of us here are aware of how that sort of reasoning can lead to real harm.

    Actually, in some depression subgroups, 'biological abnormalities' have been found, such as elevated IL1B. Similar to ME, the psychologisers have claimed that these abnormalities are the consequence of the depression, not its cause. And so the long day wears on.
    It doesn't "prove" anything. The point was, changing a person's life circumstances may cure some forms of depression but not all.

    I think further advances can't be made until we have got around the huge definitional questions - does our current diagnostic definition of depression really identify a single unique entity, or does it pick out a mixed bunch of people with very different problems? Is depression one or many things?
     
    Hutan, JemPD, Indigophoton and 8 others like this.
  7. alktipping

    alktipping Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    its strange a well educated person had to do all that research and come up with a common sense answer that ordinary people have known for years. if you have a terrible life your not going to feel happy . I personally feel modern society emphasises the wrong things success means gaining wealth that is a capitalist lie . you need security and stability to reduce stress not something that is easily found in societies based on greed and exploitation . and of course we all need people to some degree isolation is not good for any social animal long term .
     
    Indigophoton, oldtimer, Wonko and 2 others like this.
  8. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There are many actual abnormalities in ME/CFS but they have been ignored and the psychosomatic bull crap shoved down our throats by fraudsters. Much like the biochemical imbalance/neuroinflammation/genetic theories sold by corporate dollars for a generation.
    Lets not forget many genes and biochemicals have also been tied to depression from Dopamine to Serotonin to Norepinephrine to the list goes on and on and on. New theories are a dime a dozen and they keep getting replaced with even newer ones as they don't hold up for long but have some "good" results.

    Obfuscation is not the solution to a problem we want to treat with easy answers. You used an example that doesn't fit the narrative your advocating so the answer is not there are too many to tell hence your own example no longer matters, the better answer is lets face what we don't want to face.
     
    adambeyoncelowe and alktipping like this.
  9. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    OMG, I just realised that this is EXACTLY what people say about ME!
     
    Indigophoton, Wonko, Andy and 3 others like this.
  10. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    3,309
    Is there also billions of dollars spent by drug companies claiming to treat ME by claiming its physical?
     
    Wonko, adambeyoncelowe and alktipping like this.
  11. Cheshire

    Cheshire Moderator Staff Member

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    The problem is IMO that "depression" in itself doesn't mean anything. It's a symptom, not a disorder per se and probably due to many different things.
    But the most common attitude I've seen so far from many people talking about it is that they are convinced that their pet theory for what causes depression can explain all cases of depression, which is completely detremental to the sufferers.
     
    alktipping, Hutan, JemPD and 7 others like this.
  12. Solstice

    Solstice Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    449
    Like fatigue I think it can be a symptom of many things. Rough times or physical failings. Me, I get depressed when I don't stick to my diet which probably has to do with my leaky gut. Being on anti-depressants doesn't help that, staying away from certain foods(especially sugar) does. Drug companies spend money because they wanna make money, they even sponsor doctors to prescribe their drug above others. I don't think it means that much that they spent billions of dollars claiming to treat depression. Just means they saw a market where there was profit to be made.
     
  13. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    3,885
    The highly competitive capitalist society is failing so many.

    Even medical science might not be a morass of false and exaggerated claims if it weren't so competitive.
     
    alktipping and Wonko like this.
  14. Daisybell

    Daisybell Moderator Staff Member

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    2,532
    Location:
    New Zealand
    It seems to me that what has disappeared is the notion that feeling really sad is not necessarily abnormal, and does not necessarily equal depression.

    I think anti-depressants are probably vastly over-prescribed. I know I have been prescribed them several times. I haven’t ever taken them - it was the doctor who felt I should try them, and I never actually felt depressed. Sure I felt sad but then I was trying to cope with loss and grief. I didn’t want to risk making how I was feeling worse with a pill, and I never felt that I couldn’t cope with how I was feeling (except perhaps for very short periods of time).

    I suspect that true depression is a very different thing. I don’t know if there is a really good way of diagnosing it. I do think that we have become too quick to jump to diagnosis. Sometimes peoples’ lives are really terrible - it is more strange if they feel ok about it than if they don’t. What they need is help to change their lives for the better.

    But to say endogenous depression doesn’t exist is very dangerous I think. And wrong, in my opinion.
     

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