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Viruses and ME, Prior Statements by Davis & Naviaux

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS news' started by MErmaid, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. MErmaid

    MErmaid Guest

    Under the Sea
    Have we learned anything about viruses and ME since Ron & Bob made these statements back in September of 2016? Is there a relationship between a virus and ME? I am curious to know your thoughts.


    Ron Davis:
    There is a great deal of evidence that a variety of viruses can initiate ME/CFS, but it is less clear that a virus is involved in sustaining the disease. However, some patients may have a continuous problem with viruses, especially those viruses we always carry like EBV and HHV6.

    These viruses are usually kept in check by the immune system. Any suppression of the immune system can cause reactivation of these viruses (e.g., shingles). It is possible (we have new supporting data on this) that the immune system is somewhat impaired in ME/CFS, which will make it difficult to keep these viruses suppressed. If we can find the cause of this disease and cure it, this virus problem should go away.
    ....(click on link for full statement)

    Bob Naviaux:
    Question- Many ME/CFS experts have improved the symptoms in some patients by treating with antivirals and Ampligen (polyIC double stranded RNA). I think this proves that ongoing viral infections are causing our symptoms. It is not merely “tired patients” who are stuck in a lowered metabolic state because of a past trigger (which now is gone).

    We devoted a section of the paper to this and related questions about infections. The section title was, “A Homogeneous Metabolic Response to Heterogeneous Triggers”. It concluded with the sentence, “Despite the heterogeneity of triggers, the cellular response to these environmental stressors in patients who developed CFS was homogeneous and statistically robust.” As background for this conclusion, I recommend reading our paper on this topic entitled, “Metabolic features of the cell danger response” (PMID 23981537).

    Second, many people do not understand that the first response our body mounts against a viral, bacterial, or any kind of infection is metabolic. Yes, our chemistry is our first line of defense. Our chemistry reflects our instantaneous state of health. Innate immunity is coordinated by mitochondria and is an essential first step in developing adaptive immunity to any infectious agent. Without innate immunity there can be no antibodies and no NK cell activation, no mast cell activation, and no T cell mediated immunity.

    ......(click in link for full statement)
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    pone, adambeyoncelowe, Forbin and 8 others like this.
  2. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    A quote from the article:
    "A direct assay for a virus is needed in order to find out if any virus is present. The current state-of-the-art assay is a PCR test for DNA or RNA from a virus. (Serology tests are tests for antibodies, not viruses.)"

    My onset was sudden-viral. I had vertigo and 'extremely' elevated anti-thyroid antibodies.

    I had extensive PCR testing, but nothing ever showed up when I was tested 10 years later.

    Hit and run imo.
  3. Vertical

    Vertical Established Member

    U.S. SE
    What about taking an otherwise prophylactic dose of an appropriate antiviral, e.g. Famvir for those viruses which are ubiquitous amongst our
    respective systems yet remain in a stealth mode, e.g. CMV?

    (When these transfigured cells get activated by systemic stress (of varying types) symptoms flare followed by PEM.)

    (See Dr W. John Martin’ paper on CFS and CMV, American Journal ofPathology, Vol. 145, No. 2, August 1994, examining a stealth virus; later updated. Sept 18, 2014, MedCraveonline.com, Journal of Human Virology & Retrovirology, article: Stealth Adaptation of Viruses: Review and Updated Molecular Analysis on a Stealth Adapted African Green Monkey Simian Cytomegalovirus (SCMV).

    When these transfigured cells get activated by systemic stress (of varying types) symptoms flare followed by PEM
  4. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)


    Are you aware of this?

    My close friend who lives in L.A actually saw this coverage on t.v.

    "The television report had the reporter going to Martin's house to
    interview him after leaving several messages which went unanswered and going
    there twice before. This time, Martin was in his driveway. When he saw her
    approach, he ran, leaving his sandals behind in the driveway!"

    The virologist I saw told me that he doesn't believe is there is such a thing as "sleath virus".
    Esther12 and MErmaid like this.
  5. Vertical

    Vertical Established Member

    U.S. SE
    Wow, needless to say, I was not aware of this report; I would not have referenced him. Of note, he answered positively on some related questions by me and others on Phoenixrising.me late last year - strange, given these reported circumstances!

    I can’t and won’t defend him but logically we can’t be sure that his censure negates all his earlier work. It kind of begs the question ‘was his work rogue then?’ Like a professional athlete who was a real performer later going awry, e.g. Pete Rose, does not negate his earlier achievements prior to censure and suspension... .

    Martin has some strong earlier credentials, i.e. an MD and PhD. Maybe there are, or not all the dynamics of a stealth virus but such a concept seems feasible, which was accepted as valid research by an academic peer review committee who approved it’s original publication in 1994, 24 years ago. I read the paper and it hooked me as well as others.

    IAE, irrespective of this new info on Martin’s behavior (as reported) the question of prophylactic use of antivirals is a legitimate inquiry, even if not in ‘stealth’ mode.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018

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