Simon Wessely: ‘ECT is in my own advance directive’

[Barry]

a reference from a book i read decades ago

I suspect more is understood about it now.

Memory loss is not caused by improper ECT, its caused by ECT.

Agreed. But there is invariably a cost/benefit calculation for most treatments.

 

[James Morris-Lent]

I think it was not always this way. It may be some of the present-day arguments are based on earlier forms of treatment. My mother used to speak of having a gag in her mouth and being strapped to the bed to stop her injuring herself. That is why it is called electro-convulsive therapy. It triggers an epileptic fit I believe.

Yeah. That must have been terribly unpleasant. I'll take the anesthesia, please.

 

[Barry]

At least nowadays people should know not to put things in people’s mouth while they are having a seizure, but for induced seizures I think they use a mouth guard nowadays to protect teeth and tongue ...the thought of a gag makes me feel quite angry.

Yeah. That must have been terribly unpleasant. I'll take the anesthesia, please.

To be fair this may have been my mother's terminology not quite right, or even my memory. It's a long time ago we ever spoke about it.

 

[Alvin]

I do not think you will find that explanation anywhere in the professional medical literature. It sounds like an explanation for lay people.

This isn't the reference i was thinking of but came up in a quick google search
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/electroshock-treatment_b_1273359.html

Nobody knows how to tell which are bad brain cells and which are good!

I agree completely with this

It seems that in the end you are agreeing that ECT is effective treatment for the narrow range of illness for which it is considered appropriate. Everyone knows it is not a good idea for other things.

I agree that you can seizure peoeple into not thinking about their problems. Thats not a cure, anymore then MDMA is. At least in my opinion. I came across a case i didn't post earlier about a teenager with anorexia who consented to being shocked, the number of conditions electroshock is used for is growing

 

[Barry]

I agree that you can seizure peoeple into not thinking about their problems.

I'm sorry Alvin but that is so very wrong. My mother's problem was nothing like simply thinking about her problems; it was her mental health problems themselves, not merely thinking about them. Mental health issues such as these are way more than people over-thinking their issues, they run much deeper, and even mental health issues can have very physical underpinnings.

 

[Alvin]

I'm sorry Alvin but that is so very wrong. My mother's problem was nothing like simply thinking about her problems; it was her mental health problems themselves, not merely thinking about them. Mental health issue such as these are way more than people over-thinking their issues, the run much deeper and even mental health issues can have very physical underpinnings.

That is a long discussion that is probably best not to have in this thread.

 

[Barry]

That is a long discussion that is probably best not to have in this thread.

But it is about a core statement you are making in this thread in support of what you are saying.

 

[James Morris-Lent]

Children younger then 4 being treated with ECT, sounds cavalier to me.

Without further details I would hazard to guess that the presumably very small amount of such children would be exhibiting severe self-harming behavior that could not be managed through other interventions. In such dire situations ECT could, in fact, be a valid last resort.

Memory loss is not caused by improper ECT, its caused by ECT.

I didn't say otherwise. It's just that personally it would make me more angry to suffer side effects from an intervention given inappropriately than when properly indicated. I am sorry for anyone who experiences distressing ongoing memory issues regardless.

 

[Alvin]

But it is about a core statement you are making in this thread in support of what you are saying.

You will get no argument from me, but i have been warned

Without further details I would hazard to guess that the presumably very small amount of such children would be exhibiting severe self-harming behavior that could not be managed through other interventions. In such dire situations ECT could, in fact, be a valid last resort.

Its interesting how once something is okay for the "worst" cases many conditions now qualify, the definition expands when useful

 

[James Morris-Lent]

I think I'll rest my case.

Let it be understood that no BPS person can accuse me of being ideologically anti-psychiatry!

 

[Cheshire]

That is a long discussion that is probably best not to have in this thread.

Stop making these simplistic assumptions then. Can't you see you're hurting people while implying depression is just about thinking too much about your problem, hence it's all due to the sufferer's own weakness? Depression is a complex and life destroying condition, you're making a joke of all of it.

 

[Barry]

Let it be understood that no BPS person can accuse me of being ideologically anti-psychiatry!

Well actually they might well accuse you of that, but it would - as is so often the case - be a false accusation .

 

[Alvin]

hence it's all due to the sufferer's own weakness

I do not say this whatsoever

 

[Barry]

Stop making these simplistic assumptions then. Can't you see you're hurting people while implying depression is just about thinking too much about your problem, hence it's all due to the sufferer's own weakness? Depression is a complex and life destroying condition, you're making a joke of all of it.

I think @Alvin is confusing being very (very very) seriously depressed, versus clinical depression, which is so very different. I wish the latter did not have "depression" as a name, because it is as confusing as talking about "chronic fatigue" versus ME.

 

[James Morris-Lent]

Well actually they might well accuse you of that, but it would - as is so often the case - be a false accusation .

Dang you're right. I hadn't even considered that! How could I have been such a fool?

 

[Barry]

Dang you're right. I hadn't even considered that! How could I have been such a fool?

I can't help being a pedant at times . And no, you most certainly are not a fool.

 

[Inara]

I am really starting to think the adage one generation learns something and the next one forgets it is entirely true.

I think this holds, as does that history repeats itself. It is proven again and again in history.

ECT is called electroshocks coloquially. To be very honest I am a bit shocked that electroshocks seem to be ok for some here. If people choose them voluntarily after they were informed about the mechanism, chances and risks - ok. People are free to choose. Unless, of course, they're incapacitated. Which, I think, will often be the case in these situations.

Also, I don't want to belittle any successes or personal experiences which touched me, to be honest.

But whenever I heard of electroshocks, they were forced upon people, either as a forced treatment (e.g. in a psychiatric unit) or as a form of torture/punishment during (forced) hospitalization in a psychiatry.

I highly doubt we completely understand what ECT does in the brain. We don't understand what depression is, or schizophrenia. But nonetheless, electric currents are applied.

It is widely believed that after brain death the person can't feel pain anymore. But there are indications that this doesn't have to be the case. In total, we don't know if a brain dead person feels or feels not. But it is operated (in order to get organs e.g.) without anaesthetics. IF we can feel pain while brain dead, but unable to communicate it, this is pure horror. Even into the 70s, if I remember correctly, it was believed babies can't feel pain, and for operations, also, anaesthetics weren't used.

We don't know very much. We understand even less. But we do so much.

 

[Inara]

It sounds like an explanation for lay people. Nobody knows how to tell which are bad brain cells and which are good!

I understood this is exactly what @Alvin meant. No?

 

[Inara]

I just want to add the following when reading the link to Mayo @arewenearlythereyet supplied. They talk about side effects. My experience was with information about side effects in treatments involving electrical currents: side effects were trivialized in my case. When I reacted badly (I talked about it on another thread) I was told several times this is psychosomatic and that they won't prescribe pain killers.

I read similar stories wrt. lumbal puncture (which, obviously, doesn't include electric currents), and after the one I had I also was told the resulting pain was a proof of my psychosomatic disorder. I was lucky my pain went away after 3 weeks.

Chances are high that you're left alone if you have any "unusual" side effects (i.e. side effects that are maybe usual but it is not talked about). This wasn't in my mind until recently, but I will include this in any risk-chance-estimation in the future.

 

[James Morris-Lent]

Chances are high that you're left alone if you have any "unusual" side effects (i.e. side effects that are maybe usual but it is not talked about). This wasn't in my mind until recently, but I will include this in any risk-chance-estimation in the future.

I agree this needs to be considered. I'm sorry that you are apparently dealing with a bunch of superstitious Freud-worshipers.