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Predictors of Nonseroconversion after SARS-CoV-2 Infection, 2021, Liu et al

Discussion in 'Epidemics (including Covid-19)' started by strategist, Aug 30, 2021.

  1. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Predictors of Nonseroconversion after SARS-CoV-2 Infection
    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article


    ____________________


    CDC study finds that 36% of COVID patients never make antibodies


    This has implications for prevalence studies of long covid that assume a lack of antibodies means the patient's symptoms cannot be caused by the virus.

    Also interesting: age <40 years and milder illness make seroconversion less likely.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2021
    MEMarge, sebaaa, Sly Saint and 27 others like this.
  2. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    So does this mean there will be some Long Covid patients being wrongly accused of never having had Covid-19 in the first place?
     
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  3. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm not following this as closely but I understood long covid is more common in younger people, which are also less likely to seroconvert according to this new study. The percentage of long covid patients without antibodies could be higher than 36%.
     
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  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh that started on day 1 and is one of the main arguments for Long Covid deniers, along with the fact that they don't see LC patients in specialist services, because those services don't exist.
     
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  5. Ariel

    Ariel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    FWIW I didn't make any (at approx 8 weeks; I got an antibody test as soon as available) but I was lucky in that my doctor soon realized that didn't mean I hadn't had covid. Unfortunately he's had to retire now and there are still somehow people who do not understand that we did not have PCR testing yet and that antibody tests are often negative. (FWIW I am female, under 40, had mild illness) (Edit to clarify effect it had on me: I became severe gradually in the months following having covid and still have not recovered)

    I am upset at the alleged gender difference between men and women making antibodies. Seems much more common that women test negative (seems that this is also stated in this study); not enough discussion of this.
     
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  6. Michiel Tack

    Michiel Tack Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting. There was recently an opinion piece in the New York Times that argued that long covid was psychosomatic because most patients did not show an antibody response to the coronavirus.

    The authors wrote: "Antibody testing has some level of false negatives, and antibody levels can wane; however, most people with a prior infection have antibodies for some time, so such testing remains informative overall."
    See: https://www.s4me.info/threads/bps-attempts-at-psychologizing-long-covid.16013/page-45#post-365048

    If a large proportion of those infected with the coronavirus does not develop antibodies (as this study shows) and this subgroup without antibodies is more likely to develop long covid, then that there would be an explanation.
     
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  7. Peter

    Peter Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting. Maybe it could boost more people within medicine to a greater portion of humility when it comes to the “unknown”, everything that can’t be seen by the eye or measured in a blood sample, although this is actually measured here on the double!

    This is perfect. The irony. Patient are diagnosed with sars-cov 2 after state of the art-medicine methods, then you measure level of antibodies after gold standard-and-everything-is-fine, except it’s not, cause they don’t have antibodies, but hey they are still ill longtime after. What to make of that?

    A) keep an open curious mind to the idea that there are things that medicine for many different reasons simply hasn’t figured out yet.

    B) Jump to bps-like conclusions, fear/avoidance/wrong-thinking automatically, cause everything in medicine is figured out a long time ago. Period. Hmmm???
     
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  8. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting to see if there is a relationship with long covid - may help define subgroups?
     
  9. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It would be interesting to know whether that might apply equally to other viruses. There were once cases of "atypical glandular fever" leading to ME. They were atpical in that although clinically similar to, indeed indistinguishable from, glandular fever no trace of the usual viruses could be found. I was told in 1981 that it was thought that there was a window for finding the virus and if that was missed that was it. No doubt testing moved on.
     
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  10. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wonder how some Long Covid patients apparently improving after vaccination might tie into this.
     
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  11. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  12. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yep.
     
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  13. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Either. However if the antibody levels are so low the test does not pick them up its not much better than no antibodies, unless of course the test is seriously defective.
     
  14. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    One could suspect that the lack of antibodies combined with some viral persistence (which has been demonstrated) might lead to chronic symptoms. The vaccine would stimulate antibody production and help end the stalemate, or at least reduce the persistence of the virus.
     
  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This hypothesis would need to be tested. Fortunately there is a lot of funding for Covid research.
     
  16. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But I wonder why a vaccine would stimulate antibody production when the virus itself wouldn't?
     
  17. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maybe the virus has tricks to evade the immune system and prevent a proper immune response.
     
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Is it even necessary? T cell immunity might be what persists in some people. I am not at all well versed in T cell immunity, and I would welcome any thoughts from those who have looked into this.
     
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  19. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, there will be minimal protection against symptomatic infection if there was no seroconversion.
     
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  20. Binkie4

    Binkie4 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have seroconverted and would be POS on a pos/ neg scale. But I have only a low number of antibodies and 'borderline ' T cell response.( separate test)

    I don't know how to interpret this. My GP says I am immunocompromised and need a booster. So after 2 jabs which made me very ill for months, I have to start again.
     
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