1. Sign our petition calling on Cochrane to withdraw their review of Exercise Therapy for CFS here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 15th April 2024 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Post-exertional malaise among people with long COVID compared to myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), 2023, Bateman et al

Discussion in 'Long Covid research' started by SNT Gatchaman, Mar 13, 2023.

  1. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,437
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    Post-exertional malaise among people with long COVID compared to myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS)
    Vernon SD, Hartle M, Sullivan K, Bell J, Abbaszadeh S, Unutmaz D, Bateman L

    Background: Long COVID describes a condition with symptoms that linger for months to years following acute COVID-19. Many of these Long COVID symptoms are like those experienced by patients with myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS).

    Objective: We wanted to determine if people with Long COVID experienced post-exertional malaise (PEM), the hallmark symptom of ME/CFS, and if so, how it compared to PEM experienced by patients with ME/CFS.

    Methods: A questionnaire that asked about the domains of PEM including triggers, experience, recovery, and prevention was administered to 80 people seeking care for Long COVID at Bateman Horne Center. Their responses were compared to responses about PEM given by 151 patients with ME/CFS using chi-square tests of independence.

    Results: All but one Long COVID respondent reported having PEM. There were many significant differences in the types of PEM triggers, symptoms experienced during PEM, and ways to recover and prevent PEM between Long COVID and ME/CFS. Similarities between Long COVID and ME/CFS included low and medium physical and cognitive exertion to trigger PEM, symptoms of fatigue, pain, immune reaction, neurologic, orthostatic intolerance, and gastrointestinal symptoms during PEM, rest to recover from PEM, and pacing to prevent PEM.

    Conclusion: People with Long COVID experience PEM. There were significant differences in PEM experienced by people with Long COVID compared to patients with ME/CFS. This may be due to the newness of Long COVID, not knowing what exertional intolerance is or how to manage it.

    PubMed | Link | PDF (Work)
     
    Frankie, sebaaa, Lilas and 18 others like this.
  2. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,193
    Location:
    Australia
    This may be due to the newness of Long COVID, not knowing what exertional intolerance is or how to manage it.

    Almost certainly.
     
  3. RedFox

    RedFox Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,245
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    99% with PEM, yikes. I'm sure that's skewed because PwLC + PEM are more likely to visit BHC than PwLC and no PEM or mild LC, but the high prevalence of PEM in all PwLC, and almost 100% prevalence in some cohorts, is cause for great concern.
     
    alktipping, sebaaa, Lilas and 8 others like this.
  4. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,437
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
     
  5. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,889
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    From the introduction:
    [1] Pathak H, Mohan MC, Ravindran V. Chikungunya arthritis. Clin Med. 2019;19(5):381–5.

    That's a surprising thing to lead with; that's in the first paragraph, and the first reference. I was intrigued, as we have looked at some of the reports of post-chikungunya arthralgia (click on the chikungunya tab above), and the numbers reported have been small, and the evidence of chronic rheumatic disease as a result of chikungunya a bit questionable. So, if 10 million people had been documented as suffering from this, it would be news.

    That reference is interesting, but nowhere does it say that the Chikungunya virus epidemic has caused more than 10 million cases of chronic debilitating rheumatic disease. The only occurrence of the word 'million' in the arthritis paper is this, talking about the acute disease:
    Numbers of acute infections don't appear to have ballooned since then. In 2022, the number of people infected with chikungunya was reported as 383,000 people. Those numbers make it more likely that there has been only around 10 million people affected by the acute disease, making the statement in the Long Covid paper very unlikely.

    Why would the authors lead with this in a paper about PEM in Long covid?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
    Amw66, alktipping, Binkie4 and 7 others like this.
  6. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,889
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    This statement is not supported by the results. The results in what are fairly small samples are amazingly similar, considering the questions were not administered in exactly the same way:
    and also considering the Long Covid people haven't been sick very long.


    I'm not that impressed with these authors pushing the idea that depression and anxiety is an intrinsic feature of ME/CFS, Long covid and other post-infection conditions:
    Ebola virus disease survivors typically live in countries with minimal social welfare safety nets. They have typically lost many of their relatives. Often their homes and their personal effects will have been burned. They face a lot of discrimination, which can make it hard to find employment even if they do have enough energy to work. In such a situation, answers to any questions along the lines of 'how do you feel?' probably aren't going to be super positive.
    The people with Long covid are in the earlier stages of their illness, of course they are feeling worried and upset. The data table reports the percentage for "depressed and anxious" which is rather different to "having depression" and "having an anxiety disorder". I can imagine a lot of people saying yes, to a question 'do you feel depressed and anxious about things?" when they feel rubbish, don't feel able to do all the things they used to do and are worried about paying the bills.

    At least some of the authors are very familiar with ME/CFS and post acute infection conditions generally. They really should know that the evidence for depression and anxiety disorder being a core part of these illnesses is pretty weak. Given the lack of evidence, it's unhelpful to be pushing that idea. It encourages many people to think that the person has a mood problem, with appropriate first-line responses being psychotherapy and anti-depressants rather than assistance to obtain practical support.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
    Amw66, alktipping, sebaaa and 17 others like this.
  7. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    8,325
    Based on the table, it appears that PEM onset and recovery is quite a bit different when comparing LC with M.E?

    Could this be b/c LC pts might still be dealing with the viral load?
     
    alktipping and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  8. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    12,449
    Location:
    Canada
    Most studies don't ask, I think only patient-lead studies did, but in the few that did it was the most prevalent symptom or issue.

    Which really makes the studies that don't ask especially indicative of not paying one bit of attention to the world outside of textbooks and bureaucratic paperwork.
     
    RedFox, Sean, alktipping and 2 others like this.
  9. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,095
    Location:
    UK
    BHC?
     
    alktipping and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  10. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,271
    Location:
    UK
    Bateman Horne Center.
     
  11. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,271
    Location:
    UK
    A couple of things stand out for me as problematic with this research.

    First, their description of PEM is all about increases of symptoms, but there is no mention, either in the description or the questionnaire the patients filled in, of the other main feature of PEM, namely a significant reduction in ability to function for at least 24 hours. The description would seem to include what I refer to as the effects of fatiguability that happen to me during and after all activity, with effects lasting for hours, but that's not PEM if I can function at the same level on following days.

    Secondly the questionnaire has ambiguities. For example it offers as possible choices PEM happening after low, medium and high physical exertion, without making it clear that you can choose all 3. So from the results, it seems that pwME are less likely to get PEM after high exertion than medium exertion, which is clearly nonsense. Some may tick all 3, others may just tick the lowest level at which PEM occurs.

    From the results table: Column 1 is LC, column 2 is ME/CFS and column 3 is the p value for between group differences.
    Low physical exertion 14 (18%) 33 (22%) 0.49
      Medium physical exertion 67 (84%) 108 (72%) 0.31
      High physical exertion 58 (73%) 48 (32%) <.001
    Similarly for the 3 levels of cognitive exertion.

    And the what you do to prevent PEM has some ambiguities too, which seem to lead to different strategies, but may be more an artefact of how we describe what we are doing.
    The options for prevention are:
    So to me, for example, physical awareness is a key part of pacing, as is avoidance and lifestyle. So do I choose them all or just pacing?

    Edit:
    Another ambiguity:
    In the section on what you do during recovery from PEM;
    Light activity 21 (26%) 6 (4%) <.001
    So it looks like far more pwLC use light activity than pwME.

    But does light activity mean reducing from medium or high activity to light activity, ie cutting back activity, or does it mean actually trying to keep up light activity rather than resting? These are opposite strategies, not made clear. The difference may be simply a difference in interpretation of whether light activity refers to cutting back or pushing through.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
    RedFox, Sean, alktipping and 10 others like this.
  12. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

    Messages:
    21,941
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    The paper says this about the questionnaire.

    "A PEM questionnaire (Fig. 1) was administered online to people who were seeking clinical care for Long COVID at Bateman Horne Center. The PEM questionnaire was originally developed for clinical use by Bateman Horne Center providers and was used in a 2020 research study with ME/CFS patients and originally included open-ended text fields to elicit responses about PEM triggers, symptoms, recovery and prevention [9]. The same PEM questionnaire was used in this study except multiple choice responses about PEM triggers, symptoms, recovery and prevention were employed for statistical analysis. REDCap was used to administer the PEM questionnaire [12]. Only multiple choice questions were analyzed in this study."

    Our thread on the previous study is here, Dissecting the nature of post-exertional malaise, Hartle et al, 2021, where there is a lot of discussion about how many of us found the questionnaire problematic.
     
    RedFox, Sean, alktipping and 5 others like this.
  13. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,889
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    You mean Table 2? PEM onset and recovery look very very similar to me. None of the differences are significant, according to the p values.
     
  14. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    8,325
    Table 3

    Experiences:
    Respiratory % differences is interesting. Many pwLC have breathing issues and low oxygen- silent hypoxia- damages vital organs.

    Recovery:
    Sleep doesn't ameliorate PEM.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2023

Share This Page