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Multidisciplinary Biopsychosocial Program for Chronic Musculoskeletal Pain at the Dead Sea, 2019, Dramsdahl et al

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and Connective Tissue Disorders' started by Andy, May 4, 2019.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member & Outreach

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    Hmm, Norwegian patients report feeling better after a 3 week vacation at the Dead Sea. I'm sure the "biopsychosocial rehabilitation" that they received must have played an enormous part in that. ;)
    Currently only available as a PubMed abstract here, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31032567?dopt=Abstract
     
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  2. ladycatlover

    ladycatlover Moderator Staff Member

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    So how about follow up at 6 months and a year to see if the effect lasts once people return to chilly Norway?
     
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  3. roller*

    roller* Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    im wondering, if the effect would have turned into the opposite, when they had stayed 3 month and more in high-salt-environment (assuming it is in the air).
     
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  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I feel better after a beer or two.

    That's the level of evidence they seem to accept as evidence-based. Therefore beer is beneficial for ME, since by their definition it does not matter one bit if it's an anecdotal experience that can be reproduced or if the opposite happens to others.

    Graded Beer Therapy is clearly the superior treatment. Bow before me (and give me millions to "test" it, trust me, I will show that it works).
     
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  5. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Any sign of a control group or long term follow up? If not, forget it. It's advertising.
     
  6. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting. Thanks for posting.

    They provide the same treatment for ME patients. I went to a seminar about ME organised by them where they claimed to achieve very good results. Left the seminar unconvinced. The experience from ME patients I've talked to who have been there has been divided. I haven't heard about anyone who recovered, but some enjoyed the stay. During the seminar they said a paper on the effect of their treatment on ME was underway, but it sounded more like a survey than research. I emailed them asking for a link to the paper, but never heard back.

    Here's what they write about ME on their website. It also has a short video interview in English with dr. Harare from the clinic who is also one of the authors of the study.
    Dødehavsklinikken: ME/CFS/SEID Kronisk utmattelsessyndrom
    google translation: ME/CFS/SEID Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
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  7. MEMarge

    MEMarge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My daughter and I felt and looked much healthier after 2 weeks in Crete in an all-inclusive hotel in July 2015.
    • No food/drink shopping as all included
    • Able to follow a holiday routine. Up at 10, some of the aquacise in the pool.
    • Lots of sunbathing and lounging, eating and drinking
    • Some days 15 min bus trips to look round Heraklion or play Crazy golf at another hotel
    • Couple of day trips to waterpark.
    Overall, it was relaxing, undemanding and fun. Level of activity could be matched to levels of energy or pain.
    We could almost pretend we were healthy as our activity was within the normal range for Europeans on holiday.
     
  8. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Long way to go for spa therapy.
    Plus having to endure the invasive customs search making sure you and your friends don't have anti-Israeli politics.

    Here's a link to the spa and Dr. Harari (under "research").https://www.lothotel.com/clinic/

    The Dead Sea receives a huge dose of solar radiation, so most of Dr. Harari's published research is on psoriasis, vitiligo, atopic dermatitis, which respond to sunlight.

    He seems to be trying to drum up more business (many other medical conditions). Big question: did these Norwegian patients have to pay for their stay? Did they get a discount, or more massage if they consented to being research subjects? Does this affect the validity of the conclusions of the researchers?

    Is there a cozy relationship between the hotel and the doctor?

    It would be interesting to read the recruitment strategy (of the research subjects).


    Of course, heat therapy has been used in fibro and arthritis for temporary pain relief. This is a well-known fact.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  9. Slamdancin

    Slamdancin New Member

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    This is extremely interesting to me as hot baths and heating pads, along with ice alternatively, seem to allow my body to accept some help energy wise heating the body and moving the blood etc. Some days it works better than others, but it does seem that treatments that lend energy to the body without being too strenuous may be the future. I’ve imagined a machine that would be able to read energy flow throughout the body and in a pinpoint fashion supply extra support for the cells where impedance is high. Keep in mind I was an Econ grad before developing full blown ME/CFS so this could all be junk :)
     
  10. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This kind of reminds of the way tuberculosis was treated in the late 19th and early 20th century. In the western United States, numerous sanitariums / sanatoriums were established as fairly posh resorts where wealthy TB patients could go to get fresh air, away from the "sooty" and crowded environments of the urban east. The sanitariums also provided a warmer winter climate (especially in California) and many were known for their supposedly curative "waters" (i.e. mineral waters). Whether this actually improved or cured anybody's TB is debatable, but patients felt better in their new environment.

    The rise of sanitariums actually had an impact on populating the Western states. Colorado saw a major influx of easterners who came to regain their health there, and Los Angeles was more or less of a backwater until large numbers of TB patients filled sanitariums in and around the city. The "unique" properties of each sanitarium's "waters" were a big draw. There's even a Charlie Chaplin silent comedy that takes place inside a sanitarium.

    Although it's much later, there's a line in "Casablanca" that references the curative power of local waters.

     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
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  11. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    When less severely impaired I general felt better on holiday, but how do you measure the differences in activity level where all food is provided, there are no demands of daily living, where you can just sit around doing nothing and enjoy life. I don't know that any 'improvement' was ever generalised to normal life. You might feel you are able to do more, but is it that you are just doing different things. Presumably this only has an appearant effect when everything is within the individual's energy envelope or below their PEM threshold,

    However one of the last holidays I was able to take when I was well enough to travel was staying with friends that were determined to entertain me. Sight seeing and day trips became an ordeal, traveling home there was a mess up in the car collecting me from the airport and I had to take public transport; my health was decidedly worse when I got home. Now the energy demands of being in a social setting all the time, not being able to be by myself in a quiet room for the much of the time, would for me now be unsustainable.

    I suspect that any apparant retreat or spa effect could only be achieved with mild or moderate ME.

    [corrected typos]
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
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  12. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I't doesn't surprise me if patients improve during a stay there, but it does surprise me that dr. Harari towards the end in this video claims 66% get back to work, and that they have studies showing that. Does he mean 66% of ME-patients? I'd like to see that study and how they followed up the patients. I wonder if by study they mean survey and in that case how high the response rate was. I have sent them a new e-mail asking for the studies.

    "Most of the patients with ME are improved after the Dead Sea. We have some studies about that. We can say that 66% of the patients at the Dead Sea, after first stay, were back to work or to school or to study in the universities. But we know also that a part of these patients are in need of a second stay in order to reinforce the results they obtained. "

     
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  13. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    How severely affected were these people with ME getting themselves from Norway to the Black Sea? It would not be surprising, if they were capable of undertaking such a journey, that they might be able to undertake other activity. It would not mean that they were improved or recovered.
     
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  14. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting about: increased level of oxygen (but by how much, it's not a hyperbariac oxygen chamber--that, is another Israeli research study on pain), and the sun, and mineral (and fungi, by the way) levels in the sea.

    But, in essence, my take-away is that the research is promoting this Shangri-la resort for the mild, very mild cases of CFS/ME and the cost of a three-week stay and airfare, well, it's only for the well-off.

    I ain't buying anything in this sanitarium (@Forbin, thank you). Not the research, of course. Mind control: we will get you better and you will get better, you better believe it (and you do believe it and the effect lasts for a short time, placebo plus vacation).
     
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  15. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I got an email back which said my question got forwarded to the foundation's scientific research committee which reported that it's concerning a pilot study which will be published in connection to an ongoing larger clinical trial.
     

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