1. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 12th April 2021 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Mold inhalation causes innate immune activation, neural, cognitive and emotional dysfunction

Discussion in 'Health News and Research unrelated to ME/CFS' started by rvallee, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,003
    Likes Received:
    48,652
    Location:
    Canada
    *In mice

    I find it interesting to find the usual "associations" of anxiety, depression and emotions. Seems bloody obvious that it yet again reinforces the fact that those "associations" are all bogus and the product of a poor "diagnostic" process. Though I have no idea how they identify any of those things in mice. Goes to show that it's all based on superficial traits and more of a tradition than anything related to what is happening.

    Weird. Almost seems like this immune system thing is powerful and important. Might want to look into that some day.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159119303010

    https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbi.2019.11.006
     
    Helen, Andy, Peter Trewhitt and 4 others like this.
  2. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,003
    Likes Received:
    48,652
    Location:
    Canada
    Which mold? This mold:
    Interesting bit: the researchers used a placebo saline control. So cute. Are there expectations that mice respond to the placebo effect? It's normally framed as a response to expectations and the therapeutic effects of being in the charge of competent medical professionals. Then again, they can't fill questionnaires (yet) so who knows?
     
    MEMarge, Mithriel and DokaGirl like this.
  3. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,114
    Likes Received:
    53,838
    Location:
    New Zealand
    That placebo was good I think.
    I imagine people who have been unexpectedly anaesthetised and then had stuff sprayed up their nostrils might be somewhat more fearful and stressed for a while than those who got to lie at home on the couch all morning.
     
    Andy, Sly Saint, John Mac and 6 others like this.
  4. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,114
    Likes Received:
    53,838
    Location:
    New Zealand
    I found the description of the many interventions applied to the mice a bit confronting, but setting that aside:

    I thought this was an interesting paper and the authors had thought about possible issues with their studies. They did a lot, and it would take me more time than I think I could be bothered to devote to it to get even a reasonable understanding of it all. My biggest concern is that, in doing so much, it was perhaps easy for the researchers to discard the things tried that didn't show an effect and just highlight the things that did.

    They noted that the doses of mould exposure applied were higher than what a human would typically be exposed to, but also noted that in real life situations there would be nanoparticles of mould debris that might be inhaled deeper, as well as a mixture of contaminants.

    They concluded that both toxic mould and non-toxic parts of mould (of one particular mould species) do have an effect on the innate immune system. And while of course more replications are needed and some of their conclusions, especially about behavioural impacts, are a bit questionable, that seems a reasonable overall conclusion to draw.

    But lots of everyday things can potentially have a negative impact on the innate immune system; perhaps the innate immune system actually needs some challenges. So I guess the question is, how big of a problem is mould exposure in real life situations at real life dosages? Is it just the black mould species, or are other moulds a problem?

    The authors note this:
    I'd be interested to know more about this genetic susceptibility idea - does it have much to support it?

    That way of thinking about it makes sense to me - mould exposure typically being just another factor influencing an immune response. So it might fit with the idea of multiple small hits, mould exposure together with a viral or bacterial exposure at a time when the body is vulnerable perhaps because of physical exertion (or a single major hit like Ebola), that result in a level of immune response sufficiently high to trigger ME/CFS.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
    Andy, MEMarge, rvallee and 2 others like this.
  5. Guest 2176

    Guest 2176 Guest

    Wait, they didn't do this to the controls?
     
  6. Guest 2176

    Guest 2176 Guest

    Not only would there be nanoparticulate fragments of mold spores, i also posted a study from a good journal,recently , that shows that fungal hyphae actually aggregate nanoparticles on their tips (in the "wild" at construction sites, not just in tje lab) and that this changes the immune response to them. I posted that study (from pnas) in this forum i think.
     
  7. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,114
    Likes Received:
    53,838
    Location:
    New Zealand
    They did, with a saline placebo, as they should have.
     
    MEMarge, rvallee and Andy like this.

Share This Page