Malic acid supplement, sumac

Ravn said:
FWIW, years ago I took a high dose of magnesium malate under medical supervision. The magnesium was for other reasons, with the malate formulation chosen because there was some buzz about it in ME circles

The formulation contained 2.5g/serving of malic acid (as magnesium malate trihydrate and malic acid). I would have taken at least twice that daily

Didn’t make an ounce of difference to my ME symptoms or propensity to PEM so I switched to a cheaper formulation of magnesium
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Thanks for sharing your experience!
 
Hi @jnmaciuch,

I didn’t test myself by doing an activity that typically causes PEM. I didn’t feel I had the energy to push it, and the sumac did not give me an indication in advance of trying an activity that I would have the energy to do anything like that.

So, the short answer is that I don’t know what would happen if I tried to push it.
 
wingate said:
Hi @jnmaciuch,

I didn’t test myself by doing an activity that typically causes PEM. I didn’t feel I had the energy to push it, and the sumac did not give me an indication in advance of trying an activity that I would have the energy to do anything like that.

So, the short answer is that I don’t know what would happen if I tried to push it.
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Completely understandable! Definitely don’t want anyone pushing themselves into PEM to test the hypothesis, just wanted to see if anyone had noticed a lack of PEM that they would normally expect from day-to-day life.

Thanks for responding!
 
jnmaciuch said:
It seems like @MeSci may have had a similar experience of not much of an immediate effect, but a lack of negative effects after going shopping. Would you be able to confirm if you continued to see the same pattern?

I know that just asking the question might prime your responses, so I'll take any positive responses with a grain of salt regardless. And if you did still get PEM, that's still valuable information!
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Sorry but I haven't been taking sumac regularly now, just l-glutamine or sumac every few days.

Maybe I'll try again next time I need to go shopping.

I've been getting PEM-type symptoms until about 1500 again, so maybe I should try to be more consistent! I need to be fairly alert on the 22nd so will take some sumac or l-glutamine the day before or on the day.

Of course there's now the added complication of hayfever (negative effects) and lengthening days so more Vitamin D (positive effects).
 
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MeSci said:
Sorry but I haven't been taking sumac regularly now, just l-glutamine or sumac every few days.

Maybe I'll try again next time I need to go shopping.

I've been getting PEM-type symptoms until about 1500 again, so maybe I should try to be more consistent! I need to be fairly alert on the 22nd so will take some sumac or l-glutamine the day before or on the day.

Of course there's now the added complication of hayfever (negative effects) and lengthening days so more Vitamin D (positive effects).
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Thanks! If you do try it out again I’d be interested to know. I’d expect the sumac and L-glutamine to have different effects and only the sumac might do anything for PEM, but I might just be surprised by your results!
 
jnmaciuch said:
Thanks! If you do try it out again I’d be interested to know. I’d expect the sumac and L-glutamine to have different effects and only the sumac might do anything for PEM, but I might just be surprised by your results!
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Well, I took a fairly heaped teaspoonful of sumac about 2 hours before going shopping, and although it was pi$£ing down with rain I managed to walk - faster than usual, I think - about 1-1.5 miles to the shops and back, and stay focused enough to do the shopping.

How I'll feel later and tomorrow and the next day will provide more info.
 
@jnmaciuch I have no idea where this observation fits in, but I experience that my mind works faster all day when I take 25mg Quetiapin at 9pm (before bed).

My GP asked me to try it for sleep, and it did nothing for that. But I started and stopped it a few times while trying other sleeping meds, and I noticed a clear difference unrelated to how much sleep I got. So he let me continue to use them.
 
I had to collect a parcel from the neighbours today and took malic acid half an hour in advance. I had to walk maybe 50m in total and I fell asleep shortly after I got back. My head now feels hot and like it's going to explode any minute. I'm really concerned how quickly my symptoms are triggered because this would not have been a problem two months ago. And unfortunately malic acid doesn't do anything for me.
 
Utsikt said:
@jnmaciuch I have no idea where this observation fits in, but I experience that my mind works faster all day when I take 25mg Quetiapin at 9pm (before bed).

My GP asked me to try it for sleep, and it did nothing for that. But I started and stopped it a few times while trying other sleeping meds, and I noticed a clear difference unrelated to how much sleep I got. So he let me continue to use them.
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Interesting! Looking at the mechanism of action, it seems to affect everything under the sun so I really couldn't guess if it's related or not. Though I've gotten similar benefits to what you describe from taking propranolol before bed, which is also an adrenergic receptor antagonist.

I think I'd be grasping at straws to try to connect that to the TCA cycle, though. Thanks for sharing anyway!
 
OrganicChilli said:
I had to collect a parcel from the neighbours today and took malic acid half an hour in advance. I had to walk maybe 50m in total and I fell asleep shortly after I got back. My head now feels hot and like it's going to explode any minute. I'm really concerned how quickly my symptoms are triggered because this would not have been a problem two months ago. And unfortunately malic acid doesn't do anything for me.
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Thanks for letting me know, that's still good information. And I'm so sorry that the walk affected you so badly! I really hope that things get better, though I know personally how fluctuations with this illness can be immensely frustrating and unpredictable.
 
Well, I remained slightly hyper for the rest of the day yesterday after shopping (and taking sumac). I didn't sleep very well, perhaps due to the rather inefficient sleeping drug I was taking (cetirizine - a hayfever/allergy drug).

Today I feel similar to usual, possibly slightly better than usual, but not noticeably.
 
MeSci said:
Well, I remained slightly hyper for the rest of the day yesterday after shopping (and taking sumac). I didn't sleep very well, perhaps due to the rather inefficient sleeping drug I was taking (cetirizine - a hayfever/allergy drug).

Today I feel similar to usual, possibly slightly better than usual, but not noticeably.
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Thanks for the update!! Just to compare, is this different from what you would normally expect after that level of activity? Does it normally trigger PEM or other symptoms for you?
 
jnmaciuch said:
Thanks for the update!! Just to compare, is this different from what you would normally expect after that level of activity? Does it normally trigger PEM or other symptoms for you?
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I think that PEM usually comes 24 hours after the activity. I often feel OK the day after. Tomorrow will be interesting.

By the way, I was able to go up a short steep hill at the beginning of yesterday's walk in one go, whereas it usually needs at least one rest (stopping and leaning on my walking stick).
 
MeSci said:
I think that PEM usually comes 24 hours after the activity. I often feel OK the day after. Tomorrow will be interesting.

By the way, I was able to go up a short steep hill at the beginning of yesterday's walk in one go, whereas it usually needs at least one rest (stopping and leaning on my walking stick).
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Good to know--I'd be interested to know how you feel tomorrow. It's wonderful that you found it easier to go up the hill!

That was one of the first things I noticed as well. Normally on my weekly walks to the train I'm going quite slow, taking a quick break at several cross streets, and rather out of breath by the end. The first time I tried the walk with the supplement, I could not believe I got there so quickly. I nearly retraced my steps just to make sure that I did not unconsciously find a new shortcut or something.
 
Update:

I've gone back to taking a malic acid supplement in the evening, usually closer to bed time. Typically I'll do a small amount, maybe 1/4th of the capsule, to avoid heartburn. When I have successfully managed to avoid heartburn, I saw a benefit in a couple things:
1) No more digestion issues after dinner
2) The amount of stiffness I wake up with is substantially reduced. I was forgetting to do my normal brief stretch routine because I had no muscle stiffness to prompt me to remember!
3) It became much easier to naturally wake up at the same time. On the days I take it before bed, I can reliably wake up a few minutes before my alarm. Without it, I'm often getting jarred awake by the alarm and that leaves me feeling less-than-ideal the rest of the day.
 
jnmaciuch said:
Good to know--I'd be interested to know how you feel tomorrow. It's wonderful that you found it easier to go up the hill!

That was one of the first things I noticed as well. Normally on my weekly walks to the train I'm going quite slow, taking a quick break at several cross streets, and rather out of breath by the end. The first time I tried the walk with the supplement, I could not believe I got there so quickly. I nearly retraced my steps just to make sure that I did not unconsciously find a new shortcut or something.
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Well, I feel fairly grotty today, but no more than usual. I'll probably feel better around 1500. So it looks as though it's side effect-free.

I think I'll use sumac on future days when I'll have more thinking and/or activity to do than usual.
 
I thought I'd add my experience here - I bought this malic acid supplement, ie. the one linked in the original post, and I took it a few times, and didn't notice any noticeable difference. I did not do any experimentation or notice whether it prevents PEM in any way. I'll take it a few more times to see if I notice any differences.

I did notice that the outside of the capsules actually has a slight taste of malic acid (which has a green apple sort of taste), because presumably some residue got on the outside of the capsules somehow. That would make these capsules not great for placebo testing if that's also the case for other bottles of this brand.
 
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