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Machine Learning-assisted Research on ME/CFS

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by mariovitali, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maybe I will try a low dose of choline for a few weeks to see if it helps reduce appetite?? What supplement were you taking.
     
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  2. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It was standard Choline (not Phosphatidylcholine or some other special supplement mix containing also Choline).
     
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  3. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Might be of interest but eggs are a source of choline ..I eat 3 a day ....gives about 400mg
     
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  4. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Ravn

    Perhaps someone knowledgeable could step in but i look for the expression of IDO1 in several tissues. According to the following there is not much involvement of IDO1 in the Liver :

    https://www.proteinatlas.org/ENSG00000131203-IDO1/tissue

    Your way of thinking is very important : Does this hypothesis answer the multitude of symptoms and issues we are facing? One very important latest finding is that by Jonas Berquist regarding Pregnenolone. Does "Metabolic Trap" explains this finding or are we looking for other "Metabolic traps" involving pregnenolone as well?

    I feel as we do not have important pieces of information (if this info exists please let us know). As an example of questions regarding hypothyroidism :

    a) What is the prevalence of Hypothyroidism among ME/CFS Patients vs controls?
    b) What is the percentage of women with ME/CFS becoming Symptom-free / Worse / not affected while being pregnant?
    c) Among women becoming symptom-free during pregnancy is there some other common characteristic ? (e.g most of them are also hypothyroid)

    These questions may help us identifying why the things we see are happening.

    Of course we could definitely rule out the Liver by looking at a greater scale the metabolites suggesting Hepatotoxicity/ impaired Liver function identified by Maureen Hanson and performing several Fibroscans / Liver Biopsies. Unfortunately to this day, nothing has progressed in this area.
     
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  5. Ravn

    Ravn Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @mariovitali
    What about TDO, do you know? That's in the liver I understand but the question is could it be downregulated by any of the typical ME triggers like EBV? Or could it be generally downregulated if there were the sort of liver problems you talk about?

    Edit: typo - corrected TPO to TDO
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  6. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My understanding is that given a Liver Injury (through a virus, medication, toxic chemical) can disrupt many processes of metabolism since Liver is the main metabolic organ.

    EDIT : I see TPO expressed in the Thyroid gland mostly
     
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  7. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hi @mariovitali, since the mid 1980’s we know that about half of the patients with ME have needed to have their gallbladder removed (from Osler’s Web by Hilary Johnson, p 28???)

    in my case i had lab-confirmed EBV onset with liver involvement (elevated liver enzymes and lots of pain, ultrasound showed sludge in gallbladder but no stone. 5 months after onset i had the mother of all gallbladder attacks, and it was removed, the surgeon found no stone, still sludge, and it was necrotic. I also developped GERD very early into my illness.

    The problem we are facing and i will speak of Canadian patients is that the doctors learn early on to not offer testing, and specialized scans would only be ordered by a specialist authorized to perform these scans, under specific criterias. This is to reduce costs to our socialized health care system. They also become very suspicious when the patients start asking for further tests. And really we are suffering from the ‘no testing, no problem’ kind of attitude. Same goes on with brain scans and other specialized testing which would inform a specialist seeing the same population of patients, which would help in looking for similarities and generating research questions. The system is truly broken for us.

    Edit to add: @mariovitali the other peculiar symptoms that patients with ME have is sensitivity to epinephrine. (Like when going to the dentist and getting anesthesia which contains epinephrine causes a prolonged crash to many of us) this has not been investigated much. It would be interesting to understand this mechanism, as it is not understood well and patients have trouble convincing dentists not to use epinephrine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  8. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's the point, right there. Is it possible that given the lack of elevated Liver enzymes , researchers assume that there is nothing wrong with the Liver? I -honestly- begin to feel at loss here but i cannot do anything on my own. What we need is to have a group of patients asking that more Research goes towards Liver function .

    Imagine what would happen if Jen Brea and/or Jamison Hill decided to put this question forward (ie "have Researchers looked at Liver function close enough?"). Despite my repeated attempts they just won't.

    Thank you also for the source you mentioned regarding gallbladder and ME/CFS, i will have a look.
     
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  9. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    In case you missed it I added something at the bottom of my post above
     
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  10. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Milo

    Spot on regarding epinephrine, although i am trying to understand why. Here is slide 25 from my presentation, Machine Learning ranks epinephrine quite high :


    Screen Shot 2018-10-14 at 11.00.00.png



    In any case i am trying to find any unknown connections regarding the metabolic trap and ME/CFS and i will post them here
     
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  11. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have not followed too precisely your tables and such and not too sure how to interpret, but one question I wonder is whether there is a relationship between epinephrine sensitivity and the presence of adenergic receptor antibodies (from the Sheibenbogen paper).
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  12. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  13. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Given epinephrine = Adrenaline = Catecholamines

    From a study in mice :


    and


    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092125



    It appears that too much Epinephrine (and catecholamines in general?) is not good for the Liver. Perhaps this is why we have cases of ME/CFS after "prolonged periods of stress". Therefore we could add Prolonged stress as potential causes of Liver injury in susceptible individuals
     
  14. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I believe many of us PWME have a low cortisol finding and blunted diurnal cortisol curve.
     
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  15. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @mariovitali, would the vagus nerve hypothesis by van Elzekker fit into your findings? Or, if there were vagus nerve issues, how would that influence the liver?
    I think there are so many possible reasons for liver dysfunction though...
     
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  16. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Even if liver enzymes are increased, doctors (that I met) don't care. They only care if those enzymes are sky high.

    Interestingly, I share @Milo's experience regarding EBV and the gallbladder, nearly 1:1, only that my gallbladder wasn't removed (lucky me).

    Edit: Ok, not 1:1 exactly :) I re-read your post @Milo. But it was EBV and gallbladder attack with slightly elevated liver enzymes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  17. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That’s right, only if the liver enzymes are 5 times the upper limit of normal they will start to worry or consider further testing.

    Amd in my case, @Inara i am very glad not to have my gallbladder anymore as it was necrotic. I was very sick and in a lot of pain and was hospitalized for 10 days. After a couple gallbladder attacks in my opinion it is best to consider to have it removed via laparoscopy. Mine was through a big ‘zipper’, and complicated.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
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  18. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The Vagus nerve is identified by Machine Learning as important but i do not know why unfortunately. Given the signals i am getting from using it, the Liver / Gut / Gallbladder are the most likely targets to focus on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  19. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    cc: @JaimeS @Andy H @Inara @Simon M @ScottTriGuy

    One more potential connection of Liver disease with Jarred Younger's findings in neuroinflammation ? Recall that Maureen Hanson and others have found disrupted Bile acids Metabolism. Dr Fluge also said that we have something happening resembling Primary Biliary Cirrhosis (PBC) - something also mentioned to me by Carmen Scheibenbogen.




    [​IMG]




    Source : https://www.journal-of-hepatology.eu/article/S0168-8278(11)00802-6/fulltext
     
  20. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Branches of the vagus nerve are connected with every organ. I was wondering if issues with the vagus nerve (like low-grade inflammation, e.g. of the ganglia - what else?) could lead to symptoms like POTS, gastoparesis, heart problems, stomach problems (like too much or too low stomach acid), asthma etc., and maybe - due to its connection - to liver problems as well.

    Of course, it would be interesting to know if organ problems - e.g. in the liver, or gut dysbiosis - could lead to vagus nerve issues - e.g. "inflammation" - which could lead to POTS and all the other stuff.

    If the vagus nerve is a topic in my case I can't say, but I'm sure it's a problem in a family member (due to herpes viruses, amongst others, because who knows), and my grandfather had a vagotomy, so the doctors then had the opinion the vagus nerve was an issue for him.

    There seems to be a connection to mast cells and microglial cells, but I'm still reading papers. I'm looking for a connection to calcium metabolism. Unfortunately, these are theoretical connections (from my side), I think research would be needed to say if it makes sense.

    The thing is, everything seems to be intertwined...It's complex.

    @mariovitali, thanks for the info!
     
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