Lightning Process study in Norway - Given Ethics Approval February 2022

Kalliope said:
Henrik Vogt says - Several of our members have experienced improvement with LP. They want this to be researched, so that one can develop better help and so that what helped them, might become more available for those who are still sick.
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Just replace with...

David Miscavige says - Several of our members have experienced improvement with Scientology. They want this to be researched, so that one can develop better help and so that what helped them, might become more available for those who are still sick​

Or:

Miss Cléo says - Several of our members have experienced improvement with Astrology. They want this to be researched, so that one can develop better help and so that what helped them, might become more available for those who are still sick​

I mean if all it takes is for someone to say it's true than you can substitute anyone with anything. It's a freaking LP organization, obviously they think it's great it's where all their money comes from, but so does every pseudoscience advocate out there.

In a sense it's good that this is all on public record because there will be none of that pretending it wasn't this bad. It is that bad, holy hell is it awful. They really did say all those ridiculous things and they were absolutely serious when they said them.
 
A great opinion letter about this study from psychologist Grete Lilledalen on the medical news site Dagens Medisin.
It shows the absurdity in the "biopsychosocial" researcher's argumentation, and was actually funny to read.

- The National Academy of Health reviewed 9,000 articles in 2015, and concludes that ME is a somatic disease , the patients point out.

- But we believe ME is a psychosocial disorder, the researchers emphasize.

- No studies done on ME patients with exertion-induced worsening find traits or psychiatry deviating from the normal population. Mental illness that can explain functional decline is an exclusion criterion, patients argue.

- But the psyche can affect the physique, the researchers say and explain that body and psyche are connected.

- We know that, say the patients - who actually know that body and psyche are connected.

- But we think the connection between lack of energy production in the cells and fatigue after activity is more important, they argue .

Mirakelkur mot ME?
google translation: Miracle cure for ME?
 
Just noticed this statement from Moss-Morris on the website of Recovery Norway (my bolding)

Rona Moss-Morris, Professor of Psychology as Applied to Medicine, Head of Health Psychology, King’s College, London, UK.

Correction: the quote below is actually from Wyller. Thanks to @MSEsperanza for pointing this out.

“The organisation Recovery Norway gives a voice to patients who – in different ways – have completely recovered from chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS/ME). This is very important: CFS/ME is often seen as a hopeless condition, something that increases the burden on patients and their families. The fact that there is actually good hope of full recovery is therefore very important to get across to other CFS/ME sufferers, to health professionals, to health government agencies and politicians, and to the general public. In addition, the stories of the Recovery Norge members are very interesting from a scientific perspective, and can serve as a basis for future research projects on the strange mechanisms of CFS/ME.”

Source: https://www.recoverynorway.org/about-us/professionals-on-recovery/
 
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Michiel Tack said:
Just noticed this statement from Moss-Morris on the website of Recovery Norway (my bolding)

Rona Moss-Morris, Professor of Psychology as Applied to Medicine, Head of Health Psychology, King’s College, London, UK.

“The organisation Recovery Norway gives a voice to patients who – in different ways – have completely recovered from chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS/ME). This is very important: CFS/ME is often seen as a hopeless condition, something that increases the burden on patients and their families. The fact that there is actually good hope of full recovery is therefore very important to get across to other CFS/ME sufferers, to health professionals, to health government agencies and politicians, and to the general public. In addition, the stories of the Recovery Norge members are very interesting from a scientific perspective, and can serve as a basis for future research projects on the strange mechanisms of CFS/ME.”

Source: https://www.recoverynorway.org/about-us/professionals-on-recovery/
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Does she know Mr Parker I wonder ?
 
Michiel Tack said:
Just noticed this statement from Moss-Morris on the website of Recovery Norway (my bolding)

Rona Moss-Morris, Professor of Psychology as Applied to Medicine, Head of Health Psychology, King’s College, London, UK.

“The organisation Recovery Norway gives a voice to patients who – in different ways – have completely recovered from chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS/ME). This is very important: CFS/ME is often seen as a hopeless condition, something that increases the burden on patients and their families. The fact that there is actually good hope of full recovery is therefore very important to get across to other CFS/ME sufferers, to health professionals, to health government agencies and politicians, and to the general public. In addition, the stories of the Recovery Norge members are very interesting from a scientific perspective, and can serve as a basis for future research projects on the strange mechanisms of CFS/ME.”

Source: https://www.recoverynorway.org/about-us/professionals-on-recovery/
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I think that's the quote from Whyller.

They messed up the layout a bit between Rona's and W's quote I think.
 
Michiel Tack said:
Just noticed this statement from Moss-Morris on the website of Recovery Norway (my bolding)

Rona Moss-Morris, Professor of Psychology as Applied to Medicine, Head of Health Psychology, King’s College, London, UK.
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I think there must be a typo there @Michiel Tack:

Rona Moss-Morris, Professor of Psychology as Applied to Marketing, Head of Health Psychology, King’s College, London, UK.

They don't actually believe in anything do they, except money.
 
Jonathan Edwards said:
Ah, maybe we are being unfair, or maybe not.

Edit: on reading it seems not.
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Perhaps because it's difficult to draw a line between the two ( RMM and VBBW)

Edited to add the RMM's quote:
MSEsperanza said:
Professionals about 'Recovery Norway':

Rona Moss-Morris, Professor of Psychology as Applied to Medicine, Head of Health Psychology, King’s College, London, UK:

“We can learn a lot from these stories about recovery from CFS – look forward to more”.

https://www.recoverynorway.org/about-us/professionals-on-recovery/
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Kalliope said:
A great opinion letter about this study from psychologist Grete Lilledalen on the medical news site Dagens Medisin.
It shows the absurdity in the "biopsychosocial" researcher's argumentation, and was actually funny to read.

- The National Academy of Health reviewed 9,000 articles in 2015, and concludes that ME is a somatic disease , the patients point out.

- But we believe ME is a psychosocial disorder, the researchers emphasize.

- No studies done on ME patients with exertion-induced worsening find traits or psychiatry deviating from the normal population. Mental illness that can explain functional decline is an exclusion criterion, patients argue.

- But the psyche can affect the physique, the researchers say and explain that body and psyche are connected.

- We know that, say the patients - who actually know that body and psyche are connected.

- But we think the connection between lack of energy production in the cells and fatigue after activity is more important, they argue .

Mirakelkur mot ME?
google translation: Miracle cure for ME?
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I don't know how reliable the translation is, especially the dialogue portion, but pretty good overall. I assume it will make some people very angry.

The cracks in the dam are growing and the rainfall will only increase to a deluge. I don't know what the diehards of the BPS model are thinking right now but that absolutely none have the courage and integrity to get over this nonsense is really disappointing. So much disregard for what they leave behind, so little interest in real understanding.
 
very important to get across to other CFS/ME sufferers, to health professionals, to health government agencies and politicians, and to the general public.
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If a treatment is shown to be effective for enough people it will happen naturally. The reason all their "cures" are not well accepted is not lack of publicity but because they do not work for so many people.

Do very good clinical trials which show objective improvements in more symptoms than one, do not rely on questionnaires alone, show that the treatment leads to a sustained return to normal life. Then do a scientific study into what differentiates people who recover on your treatment from those who don't.

Now you won't have to advertise or get it across to anyone; people will be demanding the treatment is made available.
 
Research director at the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, Signe Flottorp shared news on twitter about a medical doctor (Nordstrand) having received criticism by a medical ethics council for providing undocumented nutritional advice.



She gets a response saying: It's important to know that Flottorp has complained about Nordstrand because what she recommends lacks evidence through scientific investigation or sufficient clinical practice. Flottorp is herself breaking the ethical rules by calling #Lightningprocess for important treatment

The same tweeter also shares an undated letter from the Norwegian Association for Cognitive Therapy stating:
Hi
Lightning Process is not cognitive therapy



To another tweeter Flottorp responds
A randomised study has shown that LP can help young people with ME. Several have told of very positive experiences with LP @RecoveryNor The Regional Committee for medical and Health Research Ethics (REK) has approved a new study. LP doesn't help everyone, but it's hard to understand the resistance



ETA: Tweets hastily translated by me
 
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Mithriel said:
If a treatment is shown to be effective for enough people it will happen naturally. The reason all their "cures" are not well accepted is not lack of publicity but because they do not work for so many people.
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And they don't work for so many people despite they fact they carefully select people beforehand so as to include only those most susceptible ready for the process.
 
A critical opinion piece about this study by senior researcher Sigmund Olafsen on a news site about research.

Kurs for ME-pasienter kan være skadelig - likevel skal det forskes på
Google translation: Course for ME patients can be harmful - yet it will be researched

In my opinion, the dangers of LP are far too little known. The first step in any research on this offer should be to find out what has gone wrong and then develop the offer in a safer direction. If one then decides to proceed with research on LP, the quality of the research must be raised significantly. Far more data must be collected and released than some questionnaires.
 
Kalliope said:
A critical opinion piece about this study by senior researcher Sigmund Olafsen on a news site about research.

Kurs for ME-pasienter kan være skadelig - likevel skal det forskes på
Google translation: Course for ME patients can be harmful - yet it will be researched

In my opinion, the dangers of LP are far too little known. The first step in any research on this offer should be to find out what has gone wrong and then develop the offer in a safer direction. If one then decides to proceed with research on LP, the quality of the research must be raised significantly. Far more data must be collected and released than some questionnaires.
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The opinion piece has received a reply by the leader of the Norwegian Association for Lightning Process instructors, Kristin Blaker.

Lightning Process kan føre til tilfriskning for ME-pasienter - endelig skal de forskes på!
google translation: Lightning Process can lead to recovery for ME patients - finally it will be researched!

In 2020, a Norwegian research group received innovation funding from the Research Council of Norway to conduct a study of 100 Norwegian ME patients who will participate in the course Lightning Process. The research group is a collaboration between NTNU, the University of Oslo, Haukeland University Hospital, the University of Bristol and the National Institute of Public Health. The group consists of five professors (two medical specialists and three psychologist specialists), who have a collaboration with two more professors (two medical specialists) and a medical specialist with a doctorate. The research group has been working on the planned study for four years and the study was recently approved by the Regional Ethics Committee, which means that they have considered it safe to carry out.

Nevertheless, there has been opposition from the ME association and some patients and relatives with a certain understanding of ME, but who clearly lack an understanding of how to perform effect studies with psychological methods. Criticism of psychological studies and ME is otherwise well known from before .

We on the other hand, are pleased that there is a heavy and broad professional environment, which will investigate a possible effect for a patient group that lacks help.
 
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