Hypothalamic-Pituitary autoimmunity and related impairment of hormone secretions in chronic fatigue syndrome, 2021, De Bellis, Montoya et al

[CBS]

Trying to pick apart studies to find reasons why their conclusions might not hold is what we do here. It's the opposite of lazy - it's trying to understand and know the truth.

Agree that truth is a laudible goal but sometime folklore when unexamined begins to look like truth.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Wouldn't it make more sense to substantiate that original claim (low activity causes low GH response?) first and to work from that?

I was hooping that you could substantiate your robust denial!

I was taught years ago that population studies showed that in communities where women continue to do a lot of physical activity throughout life a Growth Hormone response to stimulus was maintained but in communities where women had become mostly sedentary the response was lost. So I am pretty sure that GH responses are different according to baseline activity levels. Whether the responses are just to exercise or also to glucagon I don't remember but it sounds to me that neither of us has reviewed the literature in detail.

We like to pick everything apart here because that is the best way to learn.

I have looked after people with pituitary failure and diagnosed growth hormone deficiency myself in one young woman. I didn't see anything there that made me think of ME. Generalised lassitude and maybe 'fatigue' yes but not in the sense that I hear from PWME.

 

[CBS]

I was hooping that you could substantiate your robust denial!

My response was to your suggestion that this could be so easily dismissed. I've shared the current Dx criteria which these patients met. The claim that women from a physically active society retain more robust GH response (to what?) than those who are more sedentary makes for a nice anecdote and it may speak to something but it's not much to respond to if you're interested in understanding this study.

I mentioned that patients needed to lose 80% of their vasopressin producing neurons (something I had learned a while back) and then I went and found the source (and if that chapter wasn't enough, let me know).

I don't think it's too much to question where you came by your assertion about lower GH levels in those with lower activity levels.

Short of that, this is a waste of time and I suspect we'll know more in a few years.

Best of luck.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

The claim that women from a physically active society retain more robust GH response (to what?) than those who are more sedentary makes for a nice anecdote and it may speak to something but it's not much to respond to if you're interested in understanding this study.

I just checked PubMed on papers relating Growth Hormone levels and responses to exercise. It lists 3,000 papers. Recent papers suggest that interactions are complex. I don't see this as anecdote.

I would have thought it was very relevant if we are interested in understanding this study.

 

[FMMM1]

I just checked PubMed on papers relating Growth Hormone levels and responses to exercise. It lists 3,000 papers. Recent papers suggest that interactions are complex. I don't see this as anecdote.

I would have thought it was very relevant if we are interested in understanding this study.

Jaime Seltzer [ME Action], from memory, told me that she had some sympathy with critics who highlighted that activity levels might explain differences in healthy controls and people with ME/CFS (with disabling fatigue). So I wouldn't be surprised if Growth Hormone levels were lower in people with ME/CFS. A potential solution is to have controls with similar activity levels to the test (ME/CFS) group.

@CBS

 

[Arnie Pye]

I'm a bit puzzled by this discussion of growth hormone levels and physical activity. According to Wiki there are many reasons for growth hormone deficiency (GHD).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone_deficiency

Causes
Growth hormone deficiency in childhood commonly has no identifiable cause (idiopathic), and adult-onset GHD is commonly due to pituitary tumours and their treatment or to cranial irradiation.[8] A more complete list of causes includes:

• mutations of specific genes (e.g., GHRHR, GH1)
• congenital diseases such as Prader-Willi syndrome, Turner syndrome,[9] or short-stature homeobox gene deficiency[10]
• congenital malformations involving the pituitary (e.g., septo-optic dysplasia, posterior pituitary ectopia)
• chronic kidney disease[11]
• intracranial tumors in or near the sella turcica, especially craniopharyngioma
• damage to the pituitary from radiation therapy to the head (e.g. for leukemia or brain tumors), from surgery, from trauma, or from intracranial disease (e.g. hydrocephalus)
• autoimmune inflammation (hypophysitis)
• ischemic or hemorrhagic infarction from low blood pressure (Sheehan syndrome) or hemorrhage pituitary apoplexy

There are a variety of rare diseases that resemble GH deficiency, including the childhood growth failure, facial appearance, delayed bone age, and low insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) levels. However, GH testing elicits normal or high levels of GH in the blood, demonstrating that the problem is not due to a deficiency of GH but rather to a reduced sensitivity to its action. Insensitivity to GH is traditionally termed Laron dwarfism, but over the last 15 years many different types of GH resistance have been identified, primarily involving mutations of the GH binding protein or receptors.[citation needed]

In research involving this would any researcher ever make sure that there was no other cause for the GHD or would they just ignore it and keep charging on looking at physical activity?

On the thyroid forum I read, women sometimes join who could be candidates for Sheehan's Syndrome (mentioned in the quote above) and have huge difficulties getting diagnosed. Often they get instant dismissal without testing because they've "been reading that rubbish on the internet".

 

[CBS]

I just checked PubMed on papers relating Growth Hormone levels and responses to exercise. It lists 3,000 papers. Recent papers suggest that interactions are complex. I don't see this as anecdote.

I would have thought it was very relevant if we are interested in understanding this study.

Wow, 3000 papers. Sure sounds like a lot.
I don’t know. That’s definitely more than I found via my pubmed search.

 

[Mithriel]

I have no thoughts on the direct discussion here, but if the low levels of activity we are forced into is causing some of our symptoms then surely that is a path worth looking into.

Diabetes can cause kidney disease but that is not taken as a reason for dismissing tests which show abnormal kidney function, rather the reverse.

it is only a problem if you implicitly believe that the lack of activity is a choice of lifestyle.

 

[CBS]

I just checked PubMed on papers relating Growth Hormone levels and responses to exercise. It lists 3,000 papers. Recent papers suggest that interactions are complex. I don't see this as anecdote.

I would have thought it was very relevant if we are interested in understanding this study.

Maybe it’s just me (just kidding, it clearly is just me) but I find your focus on "exercise” for your pubmed search curious. Care to expound upon your choice?