Human to human lyme transmission paper sought

Y

yME

Established Member (Voting Rights)
I am looking for a paper that I recall covered sexual transmission. I know it was from Canada using dark field microscopy and staining?

Why is dark field not used as a test for chronic Lyme rather than the erratic PCR or Blot tests?

The background is a genetic specialist I hoped would look at my durcums mentioned it could be caused by lyme without knowing any family history here in the uk. I would like to forward a link to the paper to progress this possibility in my families case.
 
Google gave me these:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8163173/

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14787210.2015.1081056

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5482345/

Obviously not sure whether they're what you're looking for?

I recommend Prof Vaughan Keeley as a UK specialist in fat disorders if you need a consultant. His clinic was fantastic, and really illustrated just how much better ME clinics could be if you put together teams that have a deep interest in the condition, listen to patients, and are genuinely committed to research and improving services.
 
yME said:
Why is dark field not used as a test for chronic Lyme rather than the erratic PCR or Blot tests?
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I once asked a similar question (how this paper's author was able to detect the bacteria in - I believe it was semen and vaginal mucus?); the answer was that labs don't work with dark field microscopes anymore for detection. They used to detect syphilis this way (also a spirochete), but then a blood test was developed, and they ditched the microscopes for that cause.


Good luck with finding the paper! I know which one you mean, but I have no idea who the authors are unfortunately.
 
Plenty for me to consider, thank you all. Prof Keeley is reported to be looking at genetics re lymphedema / fat disorders so perhaps another angle I could pursue with the genetic specialist as I do not fit into those typical categories.
We here agree with the sentiment regarding what a successful team can bring to health care having recently become acquainted with the cancer breast unit. The difference to the ME unit is jaw dropping.. it is not so much a cost issue as the staff just being willing to offer wide ranging support and availability. It opened our eyes to how we have been abused and gaslighted for our ME diagnosis.

I would like to get parts of our family tested using dark field microscope technology as it seems more definitive. We had some PCR Blot done privately which were then dismissed by the gp and an immunology consultant as the standard uk test was negative of course. I had a spirochete reported as part of another procedure and positive PCR.

So anybody got any ideas on competent labs? Or is this another rabbit hole?
 
yME said:
I would like to get parts of our family tested using dark field microscope technology as it seems more definitive.
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From what I have seen of the literature and comments recently this dark field technique sounds as if it may be a scam. Finding things that look like spiral organisms under dark field is likely to be pretty unreliable I think. Nowadays things are done with the specific controls provided by molecular biological or immunological techniques.
 
Jonathan Edwards said:
specific controls provided by molecular biological or immunological techniques.
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could you please simplify if possible?

in regards the possible scam, this could explain why the eu are spending money for an improved lyme test suggesting dark field is perhaps not definitive? However, way back in 2000 I had a nhs colonoscopy with a report of motile spirochete detected. I had assumed somebody peered down a microscope at the biopsy sample saw movement and investigated. Is this being very naive? Yet from Arvo’s post syphilis was historically detected optically why not lyme bacteria? I guess the staining and florescence under different wavelengths might be the answer.
 
yME said:
could you please simplify if possible?
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DNA (PCR) tests and immunology tests are very specific because they use negative controls to ensure you are identifying a particular organism. Microscopy is useful as a screen to see if there is anything there but youth need a specific test to tell if it means anything.

Dark field is the opposite of definitive. It is just a crude screening test.
 
5vforest said:
Potentially of note, a new approach to microscopy-based diagnosis of Lyme: https://lymediagnostics.com/

I don't know anything beyond what is posted on their website.
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Thanks for sharing this. Patients and their doctors need reliable tests for Lyme and especially chronic Lyme infection. Only then will we get a handle on how common it is and how many people are misdiagnosed.
 
To me it looks like this is an "upgraded" version of the dark field approach that tries to avoid the common pitfalls.

Some quotes from their site:

If the sample quantity is small, and the sample taking procedure is not clean enough, then the spirochetes normally present on the skin or in the environment may appear in the drop of blood investigated. This happens in case of “finger-prick” examinations. Thus, both pseudo-spirochetes and external contamination might cause a false positive result – there are many self-made scientists looking at a drop of blood and posting videos about finding Borrelia.
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The DualDur reagent and method was developed based on 30 years of experience in examining spirochetes, and diagnosing Lyme disease. The DualDur reagent will make it possible for the analyst in the laboratory analyzing blood samples to see only the spirochetes, 1,000x concentrated, alive and moving. This fact was confirmed by immunofluorescence and PCR. Countless investigations were carried out with DualDur, while carefully observing and recording clinical symptoms, and performing 110,000 serological tests to back up the diagnosis.
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Countless investigations were carried out with DualDur, while carefully observing and recording clinical symptoms, and performing 110,000 serological tests to back up the diagnosis.

That sounds like money talking, not a scientific lab.
There are no publications on PubMed mentioning DualDur in the title.
I cannot find any quality control studies on the net.
 
Jonathan Edwards said:
Countless investigations were carried out with DualDur, while carefully observing and recording clinical symptoms, and performing 110,000 serological tests to back up the diagnosis.

That sounds like money talking, not a scientific lab.
There are no publications on PubMed mentioning DualDur in the title.
I cannot find any quality control studies on the net.
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There is truly a market for desperate people, patients ready to dish out tens of thousands of dollars to buy hope of a diagnosis and recovery of whatever ails them.

Those who take money from patients know this and are willing to bend the science to please them or to instil a bit of hope, just so they come back again and swipe their credit card again.
 
I’m not here to defend the DualDur people, but is worth noting that basically everyone agrees that Lyme diagnostics are totally bunk, and that we need better tests. The US government is investing (not enough) money in this, and the DualDur project looks to have had some EU funding.
 
This DualDur/LymeDiagnostics company mentioned above is actually Hungarian, run by a Hungarian family, so I can give some insight.

A few years ago there were several articles about the company in the media here with titles like: "Groundbreaking Hungarian invention to test Lyme disease", "Hungarian researchers' World-leading Lyme test" etc, you can imagine.

However, here is an article from a serious investigative, watchdog type of news site (Google translate with a little help from me below because some sentences made no sense):
HUF one billion EU support for a professionally dubious family project

It is quite long but just this part might be enough to read:

From lamp production to research and development

Lyme Diagnostics Kft. was founded in 2005 by two individuals under the name Endrédi Ipari Kft., then in 2007 a third individual took the place of one of them, and the name of the company changed to Rinetti Kft.

András Pál Bózsik bought the company in December 2011, and then changed its name to Pannon Eco-LED Kft., and in December 2015, another name change took place to the current Lyme Diagnostics Kft.

From February 2009 to February 2013, the company's main activity was agent wholesale of other products, which Bózsik did not change in 2011, when he became the owner. It was only in February 2013 that the company, which had been running for more than 1 year under the name Pannon Eco-LED Kft., became the main activity of the production of electric lighting devices. This remained until the beginning of December 2019, when "Other natural science, technical research, development", which was also added to the scope of activities in 2013, became the main scope of activity of the company, which is now called Lyme Diagnostics Kft.

In other words, in 2016 they applied for research and development funds with a healthcare project at the NKFI, and before and after that, the EU, with the company's main field of activity as lamp production. They succeeded, they received the money for a new type of diagnostic method for Lyme disease.
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I think this company is probably the reason why every person with LC in my group who is told to go to the "right" Lyme doctor comes back with a postive result, convinced that covid triggered their Lyme disease (that they had not known about before).

Jonathan Edwards said:
Countless investigations were carried out with DualDur, while carefully observing and recording clinical symptoms, and performing 110,000 serological tests to back up the diagnosis.

That sounds like money talking, not a scientific lab.
There are no publications on PubMed mentioning DualDur in the title.
I cannot find any quality control studies on the net.
Click to expand...

At the end of the article Dr András Lakos, the top Lyme expert here says that he has never seen an actual scientific publication from Bózsik (and that most probably includes Hungarian-language journals too).
 
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