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Functional Neurological Disorder After SARS-CoV-2 Vaccines: Two Case Reports & Discussion of Potential Public Health Implications, 2021, Butler et al

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Andy, Jul 16, 2021.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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  2. Binkie4

    Binkie4 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Help please!
    I would like to read these case reports.
    Is the only way to subscribe to neuro.psychiatryonline.?
     
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  3. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Totally normal things to have so many authors on a N=2 interpretation over a fringe topic lacking any evidence. And they just watched videos and concluded this means conversion disorder. Oh yeah this is totally the way to convince people that medicine is based on science. Brilliant.

    Also headaches are psychiatric now? Do words even mean anything?

    I frankly cannot think of a more effective way to destroy public trust in medicine than to promote this junk. Vaccine reactions are not a controversial thing and in many cases there is likely to have been a missed infection, and that's not even counting that it's been recorded that cases of heart inflammation occur. To dismiss this as conversion disorder is extremely foolish. This is great fodder for the antivaccine crowd.
     
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  4. Binkie4

    Binkie4 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @rvallee - can you tell me how you accessed these case reports?
     
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  5. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Reading from the abstract on the first comment.
     
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  6. Binkie4

    Binkie4 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks@rvallee- I was hoping to read the details of the 2 cases-only 6 lines of case 1 accessible unless there's a way in that I haven't found.
     
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  7. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    edit - I have read the paper now. The cases are unusual in that the patients claim symptoms appeared within 20 minutes of inoculation, but I cannot think of a mechanism that would cause the symptoms described that quickly.

    Also, note the note:
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
  8. Binkie4

    Binkie4 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wonder why people who have Pf vaccine have to remain for 15/30 minutes depending on the centre in order to pick up any adverse symptoms.

    I presume the symptoms that were picked up in the early days with a few people having Pf were different from the symptoms experienced by those in this paper...........but I won't know unless I can read more of the paper.

    I have now noted the note. Interesting. Thank you.
     
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  9. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That is due to risk of anaphylactic reaction, which is quite different to what the people in this study reported.
     
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  10. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    Look how many authors! That clinic must have been super crowded.,..
     
  11. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The two people in the study had various odd symptoms. I'm not sure what is gained by calling them FND as opposed to just symptoms that can't be explained.
     
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  12. JemPD

    JemPD Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Here in my area - Midlands UK you have to wait 15mins after AZ too - risk of anaphylaxis as Snow Leopard says.
     
  13. JemPD

    JemPD Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I should think there is plenty to be 'gained', but nothing of benefit to those suffering the symptoms.
     
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  14. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Because apparently the greatest taboo in medicine is simply saying: 'We don't know.'
     
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  15. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Screen Shot 2021-07-17 at 3.39.52 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2021-07-17 at 3.41.47 PM.png

    "indeed, stressor identification is no longer an essential diagnostic criterion and has been replaced by the requirement to identify positive neurological signs..."

    There's a paper that we commented on (*), the positive neurological signs seemed to be being a young woman, with extra points if she had a teddy bear with her in the emergency department. (sadly, I'm not joking or even exaggerating)
    Edit: * Evidence-Based Practice for the Clinical Assessment of Psychogenic Nonepileptic Seizures, 2020, Baslet et al
    "Presence of a teddy bear brought into the EEG unit predicted PNES with 88% - 99% specificity and 5%-13% sensitivity (9, 10)"

    It has been interesting to see the abandonment of the requirement to have past trauma, and as here, even the abandonment of the requirement to be stressed. So, it's futile arguing that your childhood was pleasant and you aren't worried about anything except the symptoms that go with your particular presentation of FND. They can still give you the label.

    Spot on, rvallee. Suggesting that reports of post-vaccination reactions are hysteria erodes confidence in any monitoring system pretty fast.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
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  16. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Come on down, acausality.
     
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  17. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Weird but honestly this reminds of Dick Cheney's 1% doctrine for the "war on terror". Bit of politics here but the thinking applies perfectly, also in how wrong it is. The conversion disorder ideology's entire argument if that if it is at all possible, the mere possibility, even 1 chance in 100 billion, then it must and can only be that unless proven otherwise (and since you can't prove a negative, well, done deal). Doesn't need to be probable, let alone the likeliest explanation. All that is needed is the possibility, no matter how minuscule.

    We see that a lot in the general contrarian population on the Internet, who will gleefully claim that "X can be a symptom of anxiety/panic attack therefore it must be that". Even if X is, say, shortness of breath, a common symptom observed in Covid. It can also be a symptom of anxiety, if one defines "anxiety" based on chronic illness like dysautonomia/POTS. Even though there is an actual explanation, if it "can" be psychosomatic then it must be until proven wrong, with a higher burden needed to prove it wrong than is needed for the real explanation, the asymmetry of bullshit in full effect.

    Of course there is no number to be put there, it's entirely down to personal judgment. 1%? 0.000001%? Same difference when it comes to guesstimates. Because it's just a cheap excuse to avoid having to admit that personal judgment basically plays 99% of the weight in the decision here, everything else barely adds up to 1%.
     
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