Fight and Flight ?!?

[Sparkly Unicorn]

Just pondering if there is actually any scientific backing to the whole 'fight and flight' narrative?

It seems to be everywhere but with often no citations or studies.

I'm aware it's popular in the pseudoscience lands of brain retraining. But it crosses over into other doctors and commentary and seems to be an excuse for any old treatment.

Yes, there's autonomic and nervous system problems and often issues with dealing with adrenaline but that's not the same as being stuck in fight and flight - nor is tachycardia.

Is it because we don't really know what's going on and fight and flight feels like a good explanation?

It just seems many of us are living so far below a fight and flight life. Stuck in dark rooms in minimal survival mode barely able to deal with emotion let alone fight or flight.

Curious on people's thoughts on this.

 

[MrMagoo]

Just pondering if there is actually any scientific backing to the whole 'fight and flight' narrative?

It seems to be everywhere but with often no citations or studies.

I'm aware it's popular in the pseudoscience lands of brain retraining. But it crosses over into other doctors and commentary and seems to be an excuse for any old treatment.

Yes, there's autonomic and nervous system problems and often issues with dealing with adrenaline but that's not the same as being stuck in fight and flight - nor is tachycardia.

Is it because we don't really know what's going on and fight and flight feels like a good explanation?

It just seems many of us are living so far below a fight and flight life. Stuck in dark rooms in minimal survival mode barely able to deal with emotion let alone fight or flight.

Curious on people's thoughts on this.

I believe it’s “fight, flight, freeze or fawn’ it’s in reaction to an aggressor (like a bear) I don’t have any sources I just find it unusual how it’s morphed into an either/or fight/flight.

 

[jnmaciuch]

Is it because we don't really know what's going on and fight and flight feels like a good explanation?

Do you mean specifically if there is evidence of a somewhat constant fight/flight response in ME/CFS?

I don’t think there is, at least in what “fight/flight” normally means as an immediate epinephrine/norepinephrine signaling event followed by a cortisol spike. that would be pretty physiologically impossible to maintain long term.

Chronic stress is associated with changes in various parts of either signaling pathway, usually meant to dampen that signal so it doesn’t cause as much damage if it is chronically activated.

still, it doesn’t seem like chronic stress signaling alone is a good explanation for ME/CFS. Certainly there are some observations that may point to dysregulation in those signaling pathways in response to stimuli, though it doesn’t necessarily mean being “stuck” in fight or flight mode.

I’ve seen it mostly discussed in the context of PEM, where it feels like your body might need to lean into that “mode” to power through, and then it keeps going for several hours leading to insomnia. but I think even in that context folks discuss it as temporary.

is there a specific discussion you’re referencing here? That might help me give a clearer answer.

 

[PrairieLights]

Yes, there's autonomic and nervous system problems and often issues with dealing with adrenaline but that's not the same as being stuck in fight and flight - nor is tachycardia.

Could you define what you view as fight/flight/freeze maybe?

My experience is along the lines of what you have already discounted above.

I have dysautonomia and fight or flight feelings are a big part of it. The tachycardia is only one part of my dysautonomia and not what I would point to as fight or flight. With small triggers, I can get a whole host of other symptoms that are physical and emotional causing me to get completely overwhelmed and ready to do battle, flee or burst into tears. These are not linked to my thoughts but an autonomic dysfunction.

An example of it being out of whack... my husband once asked me if I could sort the drawer with plastic containers. Obviously that's a simple task that is neither here nor there. But my body response to it was to become completely overwhelmed, burst into tears and go upstairs to lay down. Took me about an hour to calm down.

 

[Yann04]

A lot of pwME talk about a wired feeling, sometimes described as adrenaline rush, anxiety attack, fight or flight.

It’s very possible that these things are a feature of the illness. I think it’s a fair assumption to assume this feeling is probably a secondary effect of a biomedical mechanism.
But yes, a lot of the psychobehaviouralists like to use that aspect of the illness for many people to convince them all they have to do is change their brain wiring or whatever and rhey will magically be better.

 

[MrMagoo]

Not quite the same thing but ME/CFS skeptic did a piece on “boom or bust” research, you may find interesting
https://mecfsskeptic.com/boom-and-bust-another-me-cfs-myth/

 

[rvallee]

Yeah, I cringe every time I see it mentioned. It's a specific concept that has been distorted and made so generic it doesn't mean anything anymore. It's been massively overused because it somewhat seems to support psychosomatic ideology, and for no other reason. Otherwise it would almost never be mentioned outside of extreme events, and even at that, it's so generic and meaningless most of the time.

I simply cannot relate to this. The explanation is meaningless to me. Which must have to do with the fact that I, fortunately, have never experience an intense fear event. Facing a deadly animal, or some furious unstable individual with a weapon, is certainly something that leads to a very strong physiological reaction as it describes, but to apply this in how it's generally used, such as applying to chronic illness or having to do with 'stress' when it's misused to describe someone not liking their job, to me is as recklessly irresponsible as people randomly saying they are "sooo autistic" just because they sometimes get distracted by something, or whatever.

A lot of pwME talk about a wired feeling, sometimes described as adrenaline rush, anxiety attack, fight or flight.

From the descriptions made over the years in the LC community, this is what it mostly seems to refer to. It mostly describes general malaise and the "wired and tired" sensations that are to describe, where you feel the urge to move, to do something, but can't, except not because of anything to do with fear or anxiety or any of this nonsense, but simply because we are too exhausted and weak.

Just like about 90% of uses of stress or anxiety can be totally summed up as "I don't like this, I don't want to be part of this or do this", about 90% of uses of this "fight or flight" concept has mostly to do with general malaise. It's almost never actually used right, about events such as people manifesting strength far above what their muscles can handle to, say, lift a car to save a child.

For all intents and purposes, it's almost only ever used by professionals reflexively because psychosomatic ideology needs justification and this is something that can't be tested, validated, measured or assessed in any meaningful way. So, just like stress, it plays a completely generic role in providing a seemingly credible explanation, but is exactly as generic as affirming that astrology is real because the Moon and the Sun affect all life on Earth. Which is true, but has nothing to do with one another.

 

[Sparkly Unicorn]

Do you mean specifically if there is evidence of a somewhat constant fight/flight response in ME/CFS?

I don’t think there is, at least in what “fight/flight” normally means as an immediate epinephrine/norepinephrine signaling event followed by a cortisol spike. that would be pretty physiologically impossible to maintain long term.

Chronic stress is associated with changes in various parts of either signaling pathway, usually meant to dampen that signal so it doesn’t cause as much damage if it is chronically activated.

still, it doesn’t seem like chronic stress signaling alone is a good explanation for ME/CFS. Certainly there are some observations that may point to dysregulation in those signaling pathways in response to stimuli, though it doesn’t necessarily mean being “stuck” in fight or flight mode.

I’ve seen it mostly discussed in the context of PEM, where it feels like your body might need to lean into that “mode” to power through, and then it keeps going for several hours leading to insomnia. but I think even in that context folks discuss it as temporary.

is there a specific discussion you’re referencing here? That might help me give a clearer answer.

Will try and clarify!

Yes I'm wondering if there is specific evidence of fight n flight in ME?

 

[Sparkly Unicorn]

Could you define what you view as fight/flight/freeze maybe?

My experience is along the lines of what you have already discounted above.

I have dysautonomia and fight or flight feelings are a big part of it. The tachycardia is only one part of my dysautonomia and not what I would point to as fight or flight. With small triggers, I can get a whole host of other symptoms that are physical and emotional causing me to get completely overwhelmed and ready to do battle, flee or burst into tears. These are not linked to my thoughts but an autonomic dysfunction.

An example of it being out of whack... my husband once asked me if I could sort the drawer with plastic containers. Obviously that's a simple task that is neither here nor there. But my body response to it was to become completely overwhelmed, burst into tears and go upstairs to lay down. Took me about an hour to calm down.

It's a good question. What is fight n flight? I'm not sure exactly what it is. I'm curious as it's often referenced in regards to ME as a given. But noone seems to really define what it is and the evidence.

So I'm also asking what those who claim it's fight n flight really think it is?! (I'm not expecting anyone to answer that)

Apologies if I've confused the issue with tachycardia & not been clear. It's just I'm asuming tachycardia associated with POTS OI is a very different process to fight n flight.

ie a racing heart trying to get blood to the brain isn't a fight n flight response.

I just feel pretty far from being stuck in a fight n flight response. But that might be because my presentation is low heart rate, low blood pressure and feel pretty catatonic!

It just feels an odd thing to say, fight n flight as barely any of us can fight or take flight!

 

[PrairieLights]

It's a good question. What is fight n flight? I'm not sure exactly what it is. I'm curious as it's often referenced in regards to ME as a given. But noone seems to really define what it is and the evidence.

So I'm also asking what those who claim it's fight n flight really think it is?! (I'm not expecting anyone to answer that)

Apologies if I've confused the issue with tachycardia & not been clear. It's just I'm asuming tachycardia associated with POTS OI is a very different process to fight n flight.

ie a racing heart trying to get blood to the brain isn't a fight n flight response.

I just feel pretty far from being stuck in a fight n flight response. But that might be because my presentation is low heart rate, low blood pressure and feel pretty catatonic!

It just feels an odd thing to say, fight n flight as barely any of us can fight or take flight!

I don't view it as part of my me/cfs symptoms either, definitely comes as autonomic dysfunction for me.

Beyond that, I think of it as a fear/panic/ptsd response that is instinctual, definitely not just being stressed or unhappy with stuff.

I also think adrenal issues are different but I think they as well as other conditions can have overlapping symptoms.

 

[MrMagoo]

It's a good question. What is fight n flight? I'm not sure exactly what it is. I'm curious as it's often referenced in regards to ME as a given. But noone seems to really define what it is and the evidence.

So I'm also asking what those who claim it's fight n flight really think it is?! (I'm not expecting anyone to answer that)

Apologies if I've confused the issue with tachycardia & not been clear. It's just I'm asuming tachycardia associated with POTS OI is a very different process to fight n flight.

ie a racing heart trying to get blood to the brain isn't a fight n flight response.

I just feel pretty far from being stuck in a fight n flight response. But that might be because my presentation is low heart rate, low blood pressure and feel pretty catatonic!

It just feels an odd thing to say, fight n flight as barely any of us can fight or take flight!

I do think you’d have to ask those who say it what exactly they mean. Not being pedantic - you’d have to ask them and I think they would just come out with something off the top of their head. As you say it’s “accepted” and littered throughout research. Is it just a lazy way of saying stress? Probably.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Just pondering if there is actually any scientific backing to the whole 'fight and flight' narrative?

'Fight and flight' was coined as indicating common situations in which adrenaline is released via sympathetic nerves with dilatation of the pupils, tachycardia, sweating and fine tremor. As such it is a well established pattern of physiology.

But I do not know of any evidence for it being at all relevant to ME/CFS. I have not seen any studies to suggest that and it seems to bear no relation to the symptoms. The only exception might be postural tachycardia, which may or may not be a common problem in ME/CFS, but in that situation the presumed sympathetic drive to heart rate is specific to the heart so not a generalised fight or flight adrenergic state.

People talk of dysautonomia but the terminology there seems very confused. Dysautonomia seems to imply autonomic failure but in POT it seems the autonomic system is working well if not overtime.

What is certainly true is that physicians with very little understanding of the physiology (especially those who claim to be experts on the matter) throw these terms around in ways that confuses everyone.