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Elevated brain natriuretic peptide levels in chronic fatigue syndrome associate with cardiac dysfunction: a case control study - Julia Newton

Discussion in 'BioMedical ME/CFS Research' started by Sly Saint, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Elevated brain natriuretic peptide levels in chronic fatigue syndrome associate with cardiac dysfunction: a case control study
    Cara Tomas,1Andreas Finkelmeyer,1,2Tim Hodgson,2Laura MacLachlan,1Guy A MacGowan,
    1,3Andrew M Blamire,1,2Julia L Newton1,4

    http://openheart.bmj.com/content/openhrt/4/2/e000697.full.pdf
     
    adambeyoncelowe, Jan, Inara and 15 others like this.
  2. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Online version of the full text - http://openheart.bmj.com/content/4/2/e000697.full
     
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  3. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think this is interesting. My only disappointment is that they did not give us scatter plots for the data but only histograms. Nevertheless, the difference between patients and controls looks biologically relevant. A paradoxical relation to cardiac volume is also intriguing, since that would fit with a regulatory disturbance rather than a primary cardiac abnormality.

    Some other disease controls with fatigue would be useful - something they have access to.

    I think it is worth watching this space.
     
  4. guest001

    guest001 Guest

  5. Grigor

    Grigor Established Member (Voting Rights)

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  6. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Given that PwME lack muscle power, and that the heart is a power-hungry muscle, is the low cardiac volume for PwME inevitable anyway? What is cause and what is effect?
     
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  7. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    In most situations where the heart muscle is failing the cardiac volume is large. An increase in size is almost the definition of heart failure, as laid down by Starling and Bayliss a century ago. A poor heart sags into a bigger heart. What is interesting here is that the situation is the opposite.
     
  8. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    So what would this mean for volumetric blood flow through the heart in PwME?
     
  9. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Would it fit my experience? When I was at my worst my heart stopped several times. I could feel it fill and then it started beating again.
     
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  10. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Do we know if PwME had any of these issues before they knowingly had ME? Or did they result from ME? Or did they develop together?
     
  11. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Since having ME my wife has had trouble with walking, that seems possibly more than just muscle issues. She told me long time back it was almost as if she had to learn to walk again. And she cannot walk with her head up for long - she has to look down at where she is going, because she has, to a degree, consciously think her way through the process of walking, whereas before of course it took no conscious effort at all.
     
  12. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Barry this has been my experience at times, but it's not permanent. I don't know what brings this on
     
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  13. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The cardiac volume may not mean much at all. An athlete's heart is thick-walled but not enlarged in terms of volume capacity. A diseased heart has a bigger volume but a reduced proportion of that volume is pumped at each beat (lower ejection fraction).
     
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  14. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That is where I was coming from, but not being very clear. The heart is essentially a clever displacement pump I think, the fluid displacement at each stroke primarily dictated by the change in volume at each stroke. So I was wondering if we know what the displacement per beat is for PwME, compared to a healthy person, irrespective of overall volume. My wife reckons she has always had "poor circulation", mainly due to having always felt the cold very readily, especially in hands and feet ... not sure if that hangs together medically though.

    When you said that heart failure results in the heart muscles slumping, I - probably mistakenly in retrospect - assumed the converse to be true, that a heart being too small would be due to the muscles being excessively tensed. But I imagine it is more likely due to the heart having simply atrophied for some reason? Or even that some people never developed full-size hearts in the first place?
     
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  15. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Firstly, I have only a lay knowledge of medical issues, so these are just my thoughts.

    My thinking is that some aspects of walking must presumably be controlled by our autonomic nervous system, being as you do not normally have to consciously think yourself through all the low level motor-control operations when you walk. Like they way when you pick up a cup of tea and drink it, although you consciously do that, there is an amazing series of low level motor control activities that occur unconsciously to achieve that. If you had to do all that at a conscious level it would be incredibly fraught and difficult.

    So when observing my wife's walking, and what she describes, it feels to me like she may have lost some (certainly not all) of that low level motor control, being as she has to consciously think her way through that to some degree. The mention of autonomic dysfunction was what prompted me to comment here.
     
  16. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am not familiar with reasons for small volume hearts. Both of those options sound possible.
     
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  17. guest001

    guest001 Guest

    Didn't Cheney way back yonder find it was the 'fill' as opposed to the 'push' that was at issue in the hearts of pwme?
     
  18. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Which if true, might mean that muscle(s) involved with the intake stroke are more at issue? And/or valve(s) not working properly?
     
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  19. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Everytime before my heart stopped it was working like crazy.
     
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  20. guest001

    guest001 Guest

    Might be worth re-looking at Cheney's work and seeing how it fits these findings. But it won't be me doing it.... no energy at all! :(
     
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