Peter T
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Had a look on the Independent site but found nothing relevant under ‘Zoe Beauty’ for today. However I don’t have a subscription so I don’t know if that restricted my search.
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Earseeds, Acuseeds
- Thread starter Lou B Lou
- Start date
Had a look on the Independent site but found nothing relevant under ‘Zoe Beauty’ for today. However I don’t have a subscription so I don’t know if that restricted my search.
Andy
Retired committee member
Andy
Retired committee member
I don't think that investors, or their representatives, becoming directors of a company that they have invested in is unusual. I would guess that this was prearranged to take place once the program was broadcast.
Lou B Lou
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Comment under the Independent Article:
'In just a few days, Ms. Boxer’s story on her ear seeds website , has went from stating, she is “fully recovered and thriving”
to (ear seeds etc) “played a huge role in reducing her symptoms”
The original claim has also been changed, to saying this is Ms. Boxer’s ‘belief’
I do sincerely hope the lady is fully recovered and no one is doubting she didn’t have some sort of fatiguing illness related to as she herself states childhood trauma, stress or a virus and PVFS in many cases does resolve within a year without medical intervention.
Unfortunately, there is no cure for full blown M.E.
She is also incorrect is stating in your article that the backlash is only from M.E. patients as many scientists and academics are now providing their more educated opinions on the misinformation and addressing the pseudoscience. (See link below)
Yes, desperate patients and their families are angry and disappointed to see someone minimising this disease by claiming/implying, overpriced ear seeds will lead to recovery;
Yet Ms. Boxer remains unrepentant, despite being aware of the distress she has caused and continues to choose exorbitant profits over using her now elevated platform to raise awareness and circulate proper education about the World Health Organisation classified neurological disease, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.
I sincerely hope the ‘spirits’ who are guiding her, will guide her from being grossly, business-profit focused, to a better understanding for the millions of M.E. patients around the world who haven’t been as “lucky” and for those who have died prematurely from this disease.
Link to the Ernst Blog
Edzard Ernst MD, PhD, MAE, FMedSci, FRSB, FRCP, FRCPEd
https://edzardernst.com/2024/01/dra...ll-six-dragons-for-an-ear-acupressure-device/
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...e-boxer-acu-seeds-b2481733.html#comments-area
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'In just a few days, Ms. Boxer’s story on her ear seeds website , has went from stating, she is “fully recovered and thriving”
to (ear seeds etc) “played a huge role in reducing her symptoms”
The original claim has also been changed, to saying this is Ms. Boxer’s ‘belief’
I do sincerely hope the lady is fully recovered and no one is doubting she didn’t have some sort of fatiguing illness related to as she herself states childhood trauma, stress or a virus and PVFS in many cases does resolve within a year without medical intervention.
Unfortunately, there is no cure for full blown M.E.
She is also incorrect is stating in your article that the backlash is only from M.E. patients as many scientists and academics are now providing their more educated opinions on the misinformation and addressing the pseudoscience. (See link below)
Yes, desperate patients and their families are angry and disappointed to see someone minimising this disease by claiming/implying, overpriced ear seeds will lead to recovery;
Yet Ms. Boxer remains unrepentant, despite being aware of the distress she has caused and continues to choose exorbitant profits over using her now elevated platform to raise awareness and circulate proper education about the World Health Organisation classified neurological disease, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.
I sincerely hope the ‘spirits’ who are guiding her, will guide her from being grossly, business-profit focused, to a better understanding for the millions of M.E. patients around the world who haven’t been as “lucky” and for those who have died prematurely from this disease.
Link to the Ernst Blog
Edzard Ernst MD, PhD, MAE, FMedSci, FRSB, FRCP, FRCPEd
https://edzardernst.com/2024/01/dra...ll-six-dragons-for-an-ear-acupressure-device/
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...e-boxer-acu-seeds-b2481733.html#comments-area
.
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Mij
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
The rise of the social wellness club:
The Remedy Place concept pairs wellbeing with “human connection”. The idea is to go there for date night, or a corporate event, while dunking in a dopamine-boosting ice bath, rather than while imbibing booze and sugar. All the treatments, says Leary, are designed to put the body “in a better state to do what it does best”. Although this may sound like a repackaging of existing concepts, Leary says that Remedy is decidedly not a spa, because it does not address beauty or relaxation: the focus is on high-tech, holistic and traditional Chinese medicine treatments.
Leary, who holds a doctorate from Southern California University of Health Sciences in Chiropractic Medicine and Alternative Medicine and recently had Remedy tattooed on the back of his hand, truly believes he is at the vanguard of a new era. “Self-care is going to be the new fitness industry; you’re going to see self-care, recovery, preventative care places on every corner,” he says. His investors have told him “if you execute the right way, this could be a billion-dollar company.”
For all its potential, wellness is also controversial. Companies such as Goop — perhaps the world’s most famous wellness empire — have frequently faced accusations of false promises. In 2018 Goop paid $145,000 to settle a lawsuit over health claims pertaining to essential oils, and jade and quartz vaginal eggs (the company admitted no wrongdoing).
The clients I spoke to seemed to fit this template. Matthew McFate, a 27-year-old actor/singer/writer/producer based in LA, visited because he had been researching Ear Seeds (a traditional Chinese medicine treatment using pressure points on the ears) and wanted to try it. Another, Nic, who pays $595 for monthly membership in Manhattan, was attracted to Remedy Place for cryotherapy, which he has done regularly since his days as a college athlete. Another big draw, he says, is having a place to work, with some health benefits and structure, after two years of working from home. “New York apartments are not big — it doesn’t matter how much money you have — and that’s not ideal for mental clarity.”
https://www.ft.com/content/3803a309-765f-4b66-8469-0bb95ff18ca4
The Remedy Place concept pairs wellbeing with “human connection”. The idea is to go there for date night, or a corporate event, while dunking in a dopamine-boosting ice bath, rather than while imbibing booze and sugar. All the treatments, says Leary, are designed to put the body “in a better state to do what it does best”. Although this may sound like a repackaging of existing concepts, Leary says that Remedy is decidedly not a spa, because it does not address beauty or relaxation: the focus is on high-tech, holistic and traditional Chinese medicine treatments.
Leary, who holds a doctorate from Southern California University of Health Sciences in Chiropractic Medicine and Alternative Medicine and recently had Remedy tattooed on the back of his hand, truly believes he is at the vanguard of a new era. “Self-care is going to be the new fitness industry; you’re going to see self-care, recovery, preventative care places on every corner,” he says. His investors have told him “if you execute the right way, this could be a billion-dollar company.”
For all its potential, wellness is also controversial. Companies such as Goop — perhaps the world’s most famous wellness empire — have frequently faced accusations of false promises. In 2018 Goop paid $145,000 to settle a lawsuit over health claims pertaining to essential oils, and jade and quartz vaginal eggs (the company admitted no wrongdoing).
The clients I spoke to seemed to fit this template. Matthew McFate, a 27-year-old actor/singer/writer/producer based in LA, visited because he had been researching Ear Seeds (a traditional Chinese medicine treatment using pressure points on the ears) and wanted to try it. Another, Nic, who pays $595 for monthly membership in Manhattan, was attracted to Remedy Place for cryotherapy, which he has done regularly since his days as a college athlete. Another big draw, he says, is having a place to work, with some health benefits and structure, after two years of working from home. “New York apartments are not big — it doesn’t matter how much money you have — and that’s not ideal for mental clarity.”
https://www.ft.com/content/3803a309-765f-4b66-8469-0bb95ff18ca4
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rvallee
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Ahhh yes, the old button soup method. What's in the soup? A button, of course. Just a button, that's what makes it button soup. And vegetables. And bones. And spices. And herbs. And some meat. But without the button, it's not button soup.
rvallee
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
This reminds me of a local scam we have around here: Pure hazelwood. They're jewelry, usually bracelets, made of hazelwood that are claimed to heal all sorts of things. But the best part is that their healing effect "wears off" after a while, so you have to keep buying them regularly.
It's even sold in pharmacies. Works very well as a business. As a healing thingy? Not so much.
It's even sold in pharmacies. Works very well as a business. As a healing thingy? Not so much.
Wonko
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Gotta love traditional high tech if it's from a far away place. Ain't yah 
Do any of these people actually parse what they're saying writing?
If so then how does all this tripe get through.
Not just tripe but totally absurd guano level crazy tripe.
Do any of these people actually parse what they're saying writing?
If so then how does all this tripe get through.
Not just tripe but totally absurd guano level crazy tripe.
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Sly Saint
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
tornandfrayed
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
How long will it take ASA to come to a ruling? I'm afraid it'll be too late to make a difference. Dragon's Den & the BBC seem unwilling to engage with us, even though they're backpedaling on causation, by changing various sites. I suspect they are willing to take the hit of an adverse judgement from ASA, because the impression they've seeded in many minds won't be affected by that. It's highly unethical & I'm surprised the BBC's lawyers allowed it.
Lou B Lou
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
The scam lies here:
..... when the 1,000s of ME sufferers *don't recover* after forking out £30 for her Acu Seeds - Giselle will tell them she did "lots of things" to recover, not just Acu Seeds. But her *story* on Dragons Den was all about her recovering from ME and the Acu seeds.
..... when the 1,000s of ME sufferers *don't recover* after forking out £30 for her Acu Seeds - Giselle will tell them she did "lots of things" to recover, not just Acu Seeds. But her *story* on Dragons Den was all about her recovering from ME and the Acu seeds.
I don't have a subscription so can only see headlines and first para but in the text under the title:
"After childhood trauma, chronic stress and a virus that meant she could hardly move, she never thought she would be where she is now "
I now just can't help but wonder 'someone' is getting used here, or mutually used, or something 'not straightforward, even for this scenario' given these old tropes (and yes I'm almost thinking certain people involved with CFS/BPS type thing)
- particularly when you add to the suggestion that she was contacted and not the other way around, and that it was the BBC - and that for what is obviously a crappy product (and not made convincing with the supposed claims of sales and mark-up), having watched DD for many, many years I'm struggling with the credulity of the responses from the Dragons to the product.
In the old days the first discussion would be patent, and then very serious questions about its ability to be 'something a competitor could just take and manufacture 10 times more cheaply' and where is the discussion of retail etc? and just because someone got some sales they'd be asking if it was a family and friends effect. This is quite simply only a 'product' based on 'her and her story'. And the sales history isn't long enough to be about her business nous in the way some much older episodes might have been about 'sponsoring the person' because they were obviously very good at whatever they did.
UNless the programme has turned into something very different to what it was in recent years, this episode seems out of character/trend to the Dragon's Den stuff I knew in these ways. Maybe it is a change of team in charge or is it 'unique' to this episode?
The articles all talk about her being in advertising, but it seems her career was in social media - which technically is really more PR-based (although can support advertising as part of a campaign)
The rest of these bits of context slowly dribbling out, and some bits I don't know whether it has come from her or been put into her speeches or changed by journos etc but it all starts to fit together into being something a bit more 'contrived' and am wondering whether there are other 'conflicts of interest' or less specifically connections/influences perhaps even beyond just the 'business side'
I initially thought there is the issue of those who do have to change their lives due to getting the condition getting given by society very few options other than to do the immoral and boxed-in thing of pretty bigoted 'teach what you've learnt to those who are ill' encouragement and 'we'll help you' stuff (and hated that when people are going through the worst time of your life lining up 'to help' are so many, to use a horrid but accurate term, 'parasitic-seeming, but apparently well-intentioned' people offering various 'areas'). Whilst you have to be polite about them making a business out of whatever it is, because they've career-changed for their own needs and bad situation (and some it isn't even 'need' I suppose just fits better for them/is more what they like doing as a job) to something like that probably because society says 'we'll accept you only on the basis of you doing this, this way: this is your opportunity' effectively, what other options are not closed down rather than 'pat-on backed'?
That might be right or wrong in what happened but is a cliche for a reason.
I'm also puzzled in this at just how unusual and how 'brave' it would be for someone who genuinely had pretty recently been told they had full-on ME ie that might be lifelong, to process the implications and be sure of decisions and changing life plans around so fast that within a few years you 'out yourself' on a TV programme. When so many are careful even on social media or telling a few colleagues at work, certainly in the first years. Many are still in denial/ trying to beat the illness or stuck in processes hanging onto the old life they built for quite a long time in some parts even if they have taken it on board somewhat - it would take a huge 'push'/swept along on a tidal wave of others 'good ideas' when you are exhausted by an illness and therefore vulnerable, to be 'there' so quickly to be owning that story to that level of detail so publicly so quickly without knowing you had huge amounts of support suggesting it wouldn't backfire etc. ?
I'm doubtful that she's worked somewhere substantially different to the norm industry or job-wise for past, current, future re: enlightenment on understanding ME and so most would feel they'd need to tiptoe and test waters on that choice because it might open for her certain options but also closes down others.
I understand she's doing this now 'having got her offer' first, but it is still pretty personal full-on stuff in relation to this topic area. And it's made me suss in how BPS-trope laden it is in background with that stuff to the point I think about timing and what might have been happening re: ME/CFS in the lee-time to June when it was filmed etc. But then I guess everyone is an individual and there will if you look across a big enough population be some who do happen to tick all of these boxes genuinely in their history etc.
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Lou B Lou
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
This is a podcast interview run by Emma Munford (The UK's leading voice in The Law of Attraction) with Giselle Boxer. I cant get through all of it TBH, too much gushing about how to make money whilst claiming it's all spiritual. Apparently making money is high on Giselle Boxer's list of spiritual priorities.
'Spiritual Queen' Emma Munford says that Giselle Boxer became successful at making money after reading Emma's book:
'Positively Wealthy: A 33-day guide to manifesting sustainable wealth and abundance in all areas of your life'
This is the podcast.
'10k Months, Selfridges & Health - Positively Wealthy Success Story with Giselle Boxer'
https://www.boomplay.com/episode/4051175
The interview is also onYouTube
'Emma Mumford a.k.a Spiritual Queen is the UK's leading voice in Law of Attraction. She's an award-winning life coach, Manifestation YouTuber, 3x bestselling author and speaker'
They all promote each other don't they.
.
'Spiritual Queen' Emma Munford says that Giselle Boxer became successful at making money after reading Emma's book:
'Positively Wealthy: A 33-day guide to manifesting sustainable wealth and abundance in all areas of your life'
This is the podcast.
'10k Months, Selfridges & Health - Positively Wealthy Success Story with Giselle Boxer'
https://www.boomplay.com/episode/4051175
The interview is also onYouTube
'Emma Mumford a.k.a Spiritual Queen is the UK's leading voice in Law of Attraction. She's an award-winning life coach, Manifestation YouTuber, 3x bestselling author and speaker'
They all promote each other don't they.
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Andy
Retired committee member
Dragons' Den: ME charities criticise BBC show for 'promoting unproven treatment'
"BBC show Dragons' Den has been criticised by myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) charities after an entrepreneur with the condition pitched a medical product she says helped improve her own health."
https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-23...-dragons-den-for-promoting-unproven-treatment
"BBC show Dragons' Den has been criticised by myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) charities after an entrepreneur with the condition pitched a medical product she says helped improve her own health."
https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-23...-dragons-den-for-promoting-unproven-treatment
Lou B Lou
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
The take away message the public got from the DD program is that acu seeds can cure ME.
Dragons Den *Platformed* an overpriced unproven cure for a disabling, sometimes fatal disease. Putting together Giselle + the letters ME, and a claim of recovery, on primetime TV (3 million viewers) + inevitable press blitz + a Dragon Invested in it - looks like Endorsement of the product by Dragons Den.
Businesses selling products that target sick people do not have to use the word "Cure" to fall foul of the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA). Businesses selling products or courses that claim to help with recovery from ME have been found against by the ASA.
ASA ruled against the Chrysalis Effect LTD, which is a programme (course) not a product.
Advertising Standards judgement on Chrysalis Effect advertising 2023:
'.... we had not seen sufficiently robust evidence to substantiate claims currently made about the efficacy of the programme in aiding ME/CFS recovery, or that full recovery from ME/CFS using the programme had been achieved. We therefore concluded the ad was likely to mislead.
'The ad must not appear again in the form complained of. We told The Chrysalis Effect Ltd to ensure they did not make claims that their programme could aid in ME/CFS recovery, or full clinical recovery from ME/CFS, unless they held sufficient evidence to support the claims.
https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-chrysalis-effect-ltd-g22-1164009-the-chrysalis-effect-ltd.html
Dragons Den *Platformed* an overpriced unproven cure for a disabling, sometimes fatal disease. Putting together Giselle + the letters ME, and a claim of recovery, on primetime TV (3 million viewers) + inevitable press blitz + a Dragon Invested in it - looks like Endorsement of the product by Dragons Den.
Businesses selling products that target sick people do not have to use the word "Cure" to fall foul of the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA). Businesses selling products or courses that claim to help with recovery from ME have been found against by the ASA.
ASA ruled against the Chrysalis Effect LTD, which is a programme (course) not a product.
Advertising Standards judgement on Chrysalis Effect advertising 2023:
'.... we had not seen sufficiently robust evidence to substantiate claims currently made about the efficacy of the programme in aiding ME/CFS recovery, or that full recovery from ME/CFS using the programme had been achieved. We therefore concluded the ad was likely to mislead.
'The ad must not appear again in the form complained of. We told The Chrysalis Effect Ltd to ensure they did not make claims that their programme could aid in ME/CFS recovery, or full clinical recovery from ME/CFS, unless they held sufficient evidence to support the claims.
https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-chrysalis-effect-ltd-g22-1164009-the-chrysalis-effect-ltd.html
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Lou B Lou
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
It's very much about relative power. The seeds purveyor has acquired huge power to get more and more platforms for herself and her product through DD platforming and subsequent wild press publicity. To expect to acquire such power while expecting the target buyers to just be nice and buy, and not complain or criticize, is not realistic.
ME sufferers who astutely debunk various product 'cures' (or "recovery with this product") claims never get multiple platforms in the national press.
ME sufferers who astutely debunk various product 'cures' (or "recovery with this product") claims never get multiple platforms in the national press.
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rvallee
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Just like with the biopsychosocial approach. It's not necessarily the CBT, or the GET, it just, as Wessely put it, "might be of help to some". It could be changing your mindset, eating well (even if you already did, I guess you just have to eat even better), having good sleep hygiene (even if you already did, you just gotta keep optimizing it, I guess), socializing more, getting back to work, painting stuff with your fingers (uh, that's a weird one but OK), not thinking about your symptoms, thinking about your symptoms in a different way, or a combination of things.
Their best evidence shows that at best 1 in 7 has some form of benefit that can't be measured and makes no difference in outcome. So it's clearly not just the CBT/GET, it's many things, you just gotta try and return back to the normal life you had before, a life that they claim we don't want to go back, even though we desperately want to and say so all the time. Out of that they assert that it can work 100%, just because.
What's interesting about this nonsense is that it shows how we don't actually care about what's in the BS we are being sold. For decades there have been those claims of us being anti-psychology or anti-psychiatry, of being unable to accept that we have a mental illness, which makes us hostile to their evidence-based, uh, stuff. But here we have the exact same reaction to something that has nothing whatsoever to do with them. It's acupressure, Chinese herbs and, uh, the Moon? OK that's also very weird.
If only it mattered. If the biopsychosocial ideologues had any integrity, they couldn't fail to notice it. But instead they have no issue with being equivalent to sticking beads on your ears while you drink herbs and think at the Moon. And we have the exact same reaction to either. It could be astrological mind-reading or even techy gadget stuff like shakra-aligning super MRIs, or whatever. We don't care. BS is BS, no matter what fed the cow. But the BPS ideologues don't care either, and facts and evidence barely matter in evidence-based medicine, so it likely won't make a difference, but wow does it add to the mass of shameful negligence and incompetence that will one day look about just as bad as medicine's stubborn refusal to acknowledge the germ theory of disease.