Different arguments about ME/CFS pathology—aabs vs neurons—who is winning?

Jaybee00

Senior Member (Voting Rights)
So a recent preprint from an Italian patient indicated that ME/CFS is a pure brain disease closely related to Alzheimer’s disease and implicated a particular neuron.

Meanwhile other groups such as Iwasaki, Fluge along with Tyler Hulett are suggesting auto-antibodies are potentially involved in ME/CFS pathology.

It’s becoming increasingly difficult for me to follow the various arguments/threads…. They have become super-technical.

So a crude question.

In a nutshell which side is winning in your opinion?
 
In a nutshell which side is winning in your opinion?

I do not see these aspects as in competition. I see them as orthogonal - the rightness of one has no particular bearing on the rightness of the other.

We need to understand the neurological pathways involved. I don't see any doubt in neurological pathways being involved. Whether people are homing in on the 'right' neurons seems to me unimportant. You have to home in to test ideas. Paolo is the first to say that the point of an idea is to punish it with data. I think everyone involved recognises Chris P's caveats. Differential gene expression need not point in the right place at all. But we might be lucky .

We also need to understand how immune stimuli like infection trigger the illness, as it seems they often do. Here the question is different - around whether antibodies are important, and if so whether they need to be autoantibodies, or whether the immune shift is in T cells, T-like cells such as NK, MAIT, or even myeloid/monocyte lineage cells. There are also questions about latent viruses such as Herpes.

The weight of evidence, including the absence of any DR signal on DecodeME, is against a big role for autoantibodies but the therapeutic studies with Daratumumab remain tantalising.


And we have some suggestions that ME/CFS may arise from a 'two hit' sequence. The first hit may look like post-viral fatigue and the second, the more persistent and sometimes progressive illness with severe features. I was reminded of this by a ceiling light failing at home. Sometimes when a bulb is dodgy it trips the switchboard. Sometimes it just blows. Sometimes both happen at once. I suspect what we are trying to find may be two weak points in the global system, where the normal rules can flip into a counterproductive state - very much as Robert Phair was proposing with the itaconate shunt.
 
So a recent preprint from an Italian patient indicated that ME/CFS is a pure brain disease closely related to Alzheimer’s disease and implicated a particular neuron.

Meanwhile other groups such as Iwasaki, Fluge along with Tyler Hulett are suggesting auto-antibodies are potentially involved in ME/CFS pathology.

It’s becoming increasingly difficult for me to follow the various arguments/threads…. They have become super-technical.

So a crude question.

In a nutshell which side is winning in your opinion?
Research of the past years found a significant link between HSV and Alzheimer's. Also, MS is closely associated with EBV. I think there are different theories around that and a lot is simply not known yet – not just in ME but also in these better understood illnesses.

Iwasaki researches auto-immunity and herpes, and possibly even more, I don't know.

On this forum I am seeing the discourse shifting over the past weeks to the idea that there might be an autoimmunity subgroup with PEM and a herpes reactivation subgroup with PEM and additionally a flu-like remitting-relapsing picture of symptoms.

Brain disease: I think that the consensus across the leading researchers is that ME starts with an injury to the immune system. With triggers like infections, but also chronic stress and psychological and somatic trauma.

In my opinion the "pure brain disease fraction" from time to time manages to get a lot of attention but no one of them is an established ME and Long Covid researcher. Except you want to think of Avindra Nath as such an exponent. Which I rather wouldn't.
 
I don't think anyone has shown conclusive evidence their version of the disease is right yet. Mostly a lot of hand waving assumptions on the causes of certain odd results that may or may not be relevant to the core of the disease. There is every chance everyone is just looking at downstream impacts and has never measured the core of the disease, I think that is quite likely because when we see it its going to be really wrong because people are extremely ill.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom