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Deep Phenotyping of Neurologic Postacute Sequelae of SARS-CoV-2 Infection, Mina, Nath et al, 2023

Discussion in 'Long Covid research' started by Kalliope, May 5, 2023.

  1. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Neurology, Neuroimmunology & Neuroinflammation
    Deep Phenotyping of Neurologic Postacute Sequelae of SARS-CoV-2 Infection

    Abstract
    Background and Objectives SARS-CoV-2 infection has been associated with a syndrome of long-term neurologic sequelae that is poorly characterized. We aimed to describe and characterize in-depth features of neurologic postacute sequelae of SARS-CoV-2 infection (neuro-PASC).

    Methods Between October 2020 and April 2021, 12 participants were seen at the NIH Clinical Center under an observational study to characterize ongoing neurologic abnormalities after SARS-CoV-2 infection. Autonomic function and CSF immunophenotypic analysis were compared with healthy volunteers (HVs) without prior SARS-CoV-2 infection tested using the same methodology.

    Results Participants were mostly female (83%), with a mean age of 45 ± 11 years. The median time of evaluation was 9 months after COVID-19 (range 3–12 months), and most (11/12, 92%) had a history of only a mild infection. The most common neuro-PASC symptoms were cognitive difficulties and fatigue, and there was evidence for mild cognitive impairment in half of the patients (MoCA score <26). The majority (83%) had a very disabling disease, with Karnofsky Performance Status ≤80. Smell testing demonstrated different degrees of microsmia in 8 participants (66%). Brain MRI scans were normal, except 1 patient with bilateral olfactory bulb hypoplasia that was likely congenital. CSF analysis showed evidence of unique intrathecal oligoclonal bands in 3 cases (25%). Immunophenotyping of CSF compared with HVs showed that patients with neuro-PASC had lower frequencies of effector memory phenotype both for CD4+ T cells (p < 0.0001) and for CD8+ T cells (p = 0.002), an increased frequency of antibody-secreting B cells (p = 0.009), and increased frequency of cells expressing immune checkpoint molecules. On autonomic testing, there was evidence for decreased baroreflex-cardiovagal gain (p = 0.009) and an increased peripheral resistance during tilt-table testing (p < 0.0001) compared with HVs, without excessive plasma catecholamine responses.

    Discussion CSF immune dysregulation and neurocirculatory abnormalities after SARS-CoV-2 infection in the setting of disabling neuro-PASC call for further evaluation to confirm these changes and explore immunomodulatory treatments in the context of clinical trials.
     
    merylg, Michelle, sebaaa and 14 others like this.
  2. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    NIH News Release
    NIH study identifies features of Long COVID neurological symptoms

    q
    uote:

    The results showed that people with Long COVID had lower levels of CD4+ and CD8+ T cells—immune cells involved in coordinating the immune system’s response to viruses—compared to healthy controls. Researchers also found increases in the numbers of B cells and other types of immune cells, suggesting that immune dysregulation may play a role in mediating Long COVID.

    Consistent with recent studies, people with Long COVID also had problems with their autonomic nervous system, which controls unconscious functions of the body such as breathing, heart rate, and blood pressure.
     
  3. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wonder whether we'll see a broadly similar methodology ± findings as part of the upcoming NIH ME/CFS study reports (absent the olfactory bulb specifics).

    Suggesting immune dysregulation, but not neuroinflammation — or at least not from direct SARS infection.

    Small numbers, but this seems to be pointing to some people (and especially females) having a vulnerability in their immune system that predisposes to different forms of post-infection chronic illness, that may resolve but can then recur following a different infective agent.

    If the majority of this group (58%) had a history of depression/anxiety, that could simply mean they were incorrectly diagnosed with those conditions previously ( fatiguing illness = "depression", dysautonomia = "anxiety" etc). But it could also indicate that this sort of immune dysregulation mechanism might underlie a number of neuropsychiatric conditions.
     
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  4. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    An alternative way to phrase that finding would be 'Just over half of the participants had a history of depression/anxiety before COVID-19.

    Also, this is a highly selected sample, so the symptom mix may be more reflective of what the trial participant selectors were looking for, than of people with PASC in general. For example 8/12, 66% of the participants also had some loss of smell. This is a lot higher than what we have seen in any study of PASC with more random selection of participants that I can recall.

    That's slightly concerning for this study, as it means that at least 5/12 participants were on neurotropic medication and had only started with the drugs or the different dosage fairly recently. That's quite a confounder. Some anti-depressants, for example, can cause low blood pressure and dizziness, fatigue, sleep problems, anxiety, gastrointestinal issues... I think it's a shame they didn't recruit people who were not on neurotropic drugs.

    Edit to add:
    This is slightly odd (quote below) given the medical histories, but then perhaps with the participants undergoing treatment it's hard to know what the actual situation with depression and anxiety is, and what has been masked with drugs.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2023
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  5. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Blood tests
    Sounds as though all of these were unremarkable.


    Symptom assessment
    Just noting that the NIH didn't bother to assess for PEM, or compliance with ME/CFS criteria.


    Cerebrospinal fluid
    pleocytosis - increased white blood cell count.
    Oligo-clonal bands, indicating antibodies. They are found in the cerebrospinal fluid in a range of neurological diseases.
     
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  6. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think that news release is right, is it? I don't think there were lower levels of CD4+ and CD8+ T cells. Rather, there were lower levels of effector memory cells (CD45RA−CD27−cells) as subsets of the CD4+ and CD8+ cells. The y axis in these charts is the percentage of CD4+ helper T cells and CD8+ cytotoxic cells that are effector memory cells.

    Screen Shot 2023-05-06 at 7.24.37 pm.png

    (Black is healthy controls; pink is ME/CFS)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2023
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  7. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I think there might be something wrong within the paper too. The discussion suggests that reduced effector molecule expression in memory T cells is correlated with the severity of cognitive deficits and quality of life measures. So, lower levels of CD45RA-CD27- was correlated with worse symptoms. This fits with the charts above, where the PASC people had lower CD45RA-CD27- expressing cells than the healthy controls.

    But, the results section says something a bit different. It says that an increase of the effector-memory phenotype in CD4+ T cells is correlated with lower reported cognitive function scores and worse reported fatigue.

    Unless there's a mistake there, it's looking like a pretty complicated result with respect to the T cells, and it all starts to get a bit shaky. The presentation of the T cell results could certainly be clearer.

    I just want to note this limitation:
    The healthy controls weren't people who had recovered from Covid-19 and had no persisting symptoms. The control data came from before the pandemic. That's pretty disappointing; it is a fairly big problem. We have seen papers suggesting quite significant persisting immunological perturbations in healthy recoverees. The NIH study only had 12 PASC participants. It surely would not have been so hard to find some matched controls who had recovered from Covid-19.
     
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  8. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Screen Shot 2023-05-06 at 9.55.44 pm.png
    This finding about antibody secreting cells looks nice and straightforward. Black healthy controls on the left, pink ME/CFS on the right. Numbers of antibody-secreting B cells as a percentage of all B cells. This is for cells in the CSF; there wasn't the same finding in the blood. The total number of B cells in the CSF was the same or more than in the healthy controls, so there is an absolute increase in the antibody-secreting B cells, as well as a percentage increase relative to total B cells.

    This is my understanding from googling:

    B cells activate in the lymph nodes after encountering an antigen and differentiate into Antibody-secreting B cells (ASCs) before moving out into the blood. A small fraction of the ASCs move mainly into the bone marrow (also mucosal tissues, nasal lymphoid tissues, intestine, spleen*, salivary gland in Sjogrens), becoming long lived plasma cells. That reminds me of the recent speculation about movement of cells from skull bone marrow into the vascular system in the brain. The long lived plasma cells are fairly quiescent, essentially stored in the bone marrow, ready to go into antibody production if the antigen turns up again. They do seem to tick over a bit, keeping in practice by producing some antibodies without an antigen trigger.

    ASCs rapidly produce high affinity antibodies. Good grief, they make a lot - 10 to 10,000 antibody molecules per second. Exhausting.

    It sounds as though ASCs in circulation rapidly disappear once an infection is over. So, the fact that the ASCs have been found, and only in the cerebrospinal fluid seems fairly important. Look at how many ASCs were found in the healthy controls in that chart above - none.

    Antibody secreting cells are increased as a percentage of B cells in the CSF also in MS and in lupus and infections.

    There's a lot more information out there on antibody secreting cells. I couldn't find references to antibody secreting cells in CSF in ME/CFS, but I haven't looked hard.
     
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  9. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That is really disappointing. It would be more understandable if a smallish patient charity couldn't justify the processing costs for another 12 people until they knew whether it was a worthwhile avenue, but the NIH?
     
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  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, when 12 decent controls can't be mustered up, it really doesn't send the message of 'We understand that this a a major global social and economic catastrophe that also potentially has relevance to a whole range of devastating post-infectious illnesses, and we are working tirelessly to understand what is going on and find something to reduce the impact'. To me, it doesn't even send a message of 'yeah, we are making a reasonable effort'.

    The conclusion I come to is that there must be differing opinions within the NIH about Long covid and post-infection diseases in general, and the people holding the purse strings aren't the ones really understanding the problem. I wonder if Vicky Whittemore has a memoir in her when ME/CFS is solved and she has retired from the NIH.
     
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  11. Hubris

    Hubris Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is what I said in the other thread. There was initial enthusiasm, but then the momentum quickly came to a halt as a significant portion of people inside NIH think ME is a BPS disorder that doesn't really deserve quality science, just some psychological help for those "stubborn" bedbound patients. People expressed skepticism towards this idea but it seems pretty obvious to me - i mean look at the science and efforts that happens in other neurological diseases, it's a totally different thing.

    There are patients who interact with NIH directly, and they say they don't think the people there think we have a fake disease. I respect their experience, but i have experience too and I've seen that over the years doctors have gotten really good at dealing with these kind of patients - they have no issue lying and deceiving you like a politician would do. It's in their interest, after all, to tell you that you have a biological illness so you will stop harassing and badmouthing them. I have seen doctors who really seemed to be by our side show their true colors.

    I remain firmly of the opinion that actions speak louder than words.
     
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  12. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I attended one of the IiME Conferences, Vicky Whittemore gave a presentation. I recall her saying that recently they'd identified the gene responsible for a rare disease she was "involved" in. So they could now develop treatments --- ME/CFS was not yet in that position ---cause was unknown --- no way in i.e. to identify biomarkers, develop diagnostic tests, drugs (treatments) ---.

    We now have the Chris Ponting GWAS study and we've had news of a new GWAS in Holland -- in Dementia larger GWAS were required, or rather the combination of multiple studies i.e. to find genes and thereby help to target research. I'm hopeful that e.g. Chris will work to enable the further studies that are likely necessary---

    Perhaps Vicky would be a good target i.e. to promote a US GWAS study funded by NIH ---?

    So, if Vicky had written her memoir a few years ago then it may have been along the lines ---ME/CFS -- no way in i.e. to identify biomarkers, develop diagnostic tests, drugs (treatments) ---. Perhaps if she does write it then it may e.g. highlight the way in e.g. GWAS --- Nath's intensive study of a small number of patients with ME/CFS ---.
     
  13. Sid

    Sid Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don’t think the high prevalence of depression/anxiety/psychotropic meds in this study is surprising considering the demographic group in question. There was a chart floating around on Twitter the other day showing, I don’t know how accurately, that a quarter of middle aged white women in the US have taken antidepressants. The control group in this study is not presented in Table 1 which is highly unusual and makes me think they don’t want to show how poorly matched the groups are.

    I’m surprised by what gets through review these days. I’m dreading their upcoming ME/CFS papers. 1980s-early 1990s horrific NIH papers from the Incline Village era buried ME/CFS in the psychosomatic dumpster for two generations.
     
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  14. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Well I think she [edit - may] be able to highlight that they put together a research program to try to address the issue --- here's the reply to my email:
    "
    Thank you for your email. We are currently in the process of developing an ME/CFS Research Roadmap and Genomics/Genetics are one of the topic areas under discussion. We are aware of the studies you mentioned, and Chris [Ponting] is involved in the group that is discussing genomic/genetic research on ME/CFS. There will be a series of webinars open to the public in the coming months that will provide perspectives from experts in the field regarding research priorities for ME/CFS. If you are not already, you should sign up for the NIH email listserv so you receive notices of the webinar series; go to: https://www.nih.gov/mecfs


    Thanks again, and best wishes,


    Vicky"
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
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  15. B_V

    B_V Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    The controls were from the intramural ME/CFS study, as the paper notes.
     
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  16. Dakota15

    Dakota15 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    (fairly unrelated) Just wanted to state that Dr. Whittemore (along with Dr. Koroshetz) is aiming to try to attend the May 11th Millions Missing event with the Minnesota ME/CFS Alliance & patient community

    I thought even in attempting in *wanting* to be present at that was a somewhat nice gesture, given how far the gap is with other NIH leaders & the ME community (historically).
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2023
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  17. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, so the barest minimum level of effort. Brian, sorry, I can't tell from your comment if you think this was ok, or not.

    Do you understand the point about the healthy controls not having had Covid-19, and so they were unlike the Long covid participants? In that study, we are wanting to keep variables limited to 'Long covid'; 'not Long Covid'. So, the most important control group are those who have also had a Covid-19 infection fairly recently, but have not developed persisting symptoms. We know this is important, because studies have found medium-term persisting biochemical effects that can probably be attributed to the Covid-19 infection (because they aren't there in controls who haven't had the infection), regardless of whether the people have persisting symptoms or not.

    You probably understand that, I just couldn't tell from your comment.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
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  18. B_V

    B_V Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sure, using people who recovered completely after acute covid would've been the ideal control group. But it was very difficult to bring healthy people into the Clinical Center at that time. Basically impossible from what I've heard. And each healthy control in the intramural study took about 7-10 days to run through the protocol, so another dozen people would've been 2-3 months.
     
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  19. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think I really understand that.

    The people with Long Covid were required to go in. Presumably precautions were taken to ensure they didn't get infected with Covid-19 again? It's not as if they already had a disease and it didn't matter if they were exposed to it again - a Covid-19 infection on top of LC might have been nasty. Some of our members have had a major decrease in health upon contracting Covid-19 while already having ME/CFS symptoms. So, surely, all possible precautions were taken to minimise the risk of them becoming infected. And so those precautions could have been applied to the healthy controls too.

    Did any of the LC participants actually contract Covid-19 while they were doing the trial?

    If the LC participants were taking that risk, then isn't it important that the study is robust and useful, that it honours their effort? And that requires proper controls. The lack of post-illness controls makes a huge difference to the conclusions we can draw from the study. I really can't see how rules would be in place to allow some uninfected sick people in for a trial, and to not allow some uninfected healthy people in.

    If it took another 2 to 3 months, well, that would be a shame, but at least we'd have some useful answers at the end of it. It's not a matter of the previously infected healthy controls being the ideal control group - they are the necessary control group for good science.

    Only managing to test 12 Long covid people and no controls in order to try to find answers to a global crisis is still looking like a lack of effort and interest to me.
     
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  20. B_V

    B_V Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    The restrictions on healthy inpatient volunteers was an NIH Clinical Center-wide policy. It had nothing to do with any specific study.

    "In March 2020, the NIH Clinical Center implemented visitor restrictions, including limiting the admission of healthy volunteers to clinical research studies. Only patients who needed medical treatment or individuals participating in COVID-19-related research studies were allowed to enter the facility. The restrictions were put in place to limit the potential spread of COVID-19 to vulnerable patients and healthcare workers."
     

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