1. Sign our petition calling on Cochrane to withdraw their review of Exercise Therapy for CFS here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 8th April 2024 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

Cognitive behavioural therapy for MS-related fatigue explained: A longitudinal mediation analysis, 2018, van den Akker et al

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Andy, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

    Messages:
    21,903
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Paywalled at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022399917304361
     
    BeautifulDay, Joh, petrichor and 3 others like this.
  2. Marco

    Marco Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    277
    I'd be interested to know what "perceived physical activity" is?
     
  3. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,316
    Are there any objective measures, or is this another questionnaire bonanza?
     
    BeautifulDay, Allele, Joh and 4 others like this.
  4. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    52,210
    Location:
    UK
    Are they they same Dutch team who do crap CBT/GET studies on ME? Some of the authors' names look familiar.

    Now they are screwing around in the heads of MS sufferers. Oh dear. I wonder what measures they used - Chalder Fatigue Scale, anyone?

    Does anyone have access to the full paper?
     
    BeautifulDay, Grigor, Allele and 6 others like this.
  5. Rick Sanchez

    Rick Sanchez Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    155
    Yep, it's the same clowns who conducted the laughably funny CBT studies for CFS patients in The Netherlands - https://www.researchgate.net/public...atigue_syndrome_The_role_of_physical_activity

    These guys are such bozos.

    Only a psychiatrist would be surprised that focusing on improving fatigue perceptions, perceived physical activity, daytime sleepiness, helplessness, and physical functioning will improve a patients self-reported measure on the same outcomes.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    Allele, Joh, Woolie and 1 other person like this.
  6. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,393
    It's not any sort of objective measure of activity levels that were used.

    I couldn't be bothered to read this. It would probably be good to have people critically engaging with this research though:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com.https.sci-hub.tv/science/article/pii/S0022399917304361
     
    Allele, Trish and Andy like this.
  7. petrichor

    petrichor Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    320
    I'm pretty sure CBT is regarded as possibly being helpful in a variety of physical conditions, including Cancer related fatigue (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360364/), Lupus (https://resources.lupus.org/entry/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-benefits-people-with-lupus), asthma (http://www.cochrane.org/CD011818/AIRWAYS_cognitive-behavioural-therapy-people-asthma) and Parkinson's (http://ebmh.bmj.com/content/20/1/15).

    Whether it is actually helpful is another question, but it seems to be something that is pretty commonly applied for highly disabling conditions.
     
    Allele and Trish like this.
  8. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,918
    Yea, CBT is good for whatever ails you. That's the joy of non-blinded studies relying on patient self-report. Homeopathy has proven benefits too, if you study it the same way (you don't blind patients to what medicine they got and you ask them to report how they feel).
     
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Guest

    Messages:
    2,275
    Location:
    Netherlands
    It's not clear which form of CBT you're talking about. The normal form used in biomedical conditions is aimed at coping. The form studied in ME/CFS is based on denial of symptoms.

    The denial-based CBT has been expanded into other diseases by the same people who have applied it to ME. In those cases they are saying that while there is a biomedical disease, there are also symptoms that they believe are excessive or not caused by the disease at all. Basically they are layering a psychosomatic diagnosis onto the biomedical one, usually in regards to pain or fatigue.

    This is a rather dangerous development, since it can very much impact how people with cancer, MS, etc, are treated by insurance companies and disability services. They can say that yes, there is a biomedical disease, but the actual disability is partly or entirely due to the supposedly psychosomatic symptoms instead. This can mean that someone badly disabled by a biomedical disease could have insurance or benefits denied or reduced by claiming that their disability is psychological and/or curable.
     
  10. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,393
    Cancer related fatigue is another one where objective measures of activity show no improvement. It's funny reading them try to explain this when their CBT model assumed it would help by encouraging people to increase their activity levels. They suggested patients may have increased their activity... but only at the points in time when their activity levels were not being measured. Those sneaky cancer patients!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3360858/

    It looks like a load of quackery to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  11. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,154
    Location:
    Australia
    Which is why they must be stopped. This slippery subjective anti-evidence madness goes way past just ME and MUS. We are just the means for them to impose it on the wider world.

    That is truly pathetic and contemptible. :grumpy:
     
    Sue, Allele, Arnie Pye and 5 others like this.
  12. petrichor

    petrichor Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    320
    Well in most of the cases with the physical illnesses, they just think it's a bit helpful, and I don't think they're saying anything about whether it's psychological.

    Plus, from what I've heard from most practitioners, a lot of CBT aimed at CFS is about coping. I mean, plenty of CBT done is probably about denial, but I get the impression there's a fair bit that's about coping and managing (from people that have a relatively sane attitude towards CFS.). I've seen two CBT psychologists that specialized in CFS, and they only focused on managing, not denying.
     
    Sue and Trish like this.
  13. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    Australia
    The claims made are still quite different - the researchers aren't claiming that CBT leads to recovery for these conditions.
     
    Valentijn, Trish, Sean and 2 others like this.
  14. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,918
    From the abstract:
    Its like saying "Little is known about exactly how long fairies' legs are".

    Both questions seem to rest on a huge elephant of an assumption.
     
  15. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,154
    Location:
    Australia
    Lucky that there has never been any objection in the patient community to that type of support, for those who wish to use it.

    We are not anti-psych. We are anti-pseudoscience.
     
  16. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,154
    Location:
    Australia
    Slightly longer than a pixies'. Everybody knows that. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Guest

    Messages:
    2,275
    Location:
    Netherlands
    If the primary goal is to reduce self-reported fatigue or pain, it's not about coping. Coping would focus on helping patients to accept and adapt to their limitations, not to deny that those limitations exist.

    There has been almost no research into coping-based CBT for ME patients, so there's no evidence that it's of any benefit. Accordingly, there is no basis to recommend coping-based CBT for ME specifically.
     
  18. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,273
    Location:
    Norway
    Article today in the Guardian: Workplaces should cater for menopause as they do for pregnancy

    Guess how?
    - CBT!
    Says who?
    - Myra Hunter, emeritus professor of clinical health psychology at King's College London

    The call comes as Hunter and colleagues publish the results of one of the first major studies looking at how symptoms such as hot flushes affect women at work. The study, which tracked 124 female employees in the public and private sectors, found that such symptoms could have a significant impact, but that following a simple programme of cognitive behavioural therapy, delivered via a self-help booklet, hugely reduced the degree to which women felt their symptoms were problematic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    BeautifulDay, Chezboo, ukxmrv and 7 others like this.
  19. Cheshire

    Cheshire Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,675
    Pathologize normality.
    Offer your useless therapies that do not work.
    Then make people feel guilty because they don't get better.
    Build up a nice career on this pile of shite.

    :sick::sick::sick:
     
  20. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,252
    Whether CBT is about curing or coping depends on the context. If the researchers/therapists are promoting their therapy, they will claim it can cure by changing the perpetuating factors. When they are responding to criticism the CBT is suddenly about coping.
     

Share This Page