Brain Retraining treatment for ME/CFS and Long COVID - discussion thread

[Utsikt]

That's what I thought he meant. We haven't found evidence, therefore there isn't any. But if they are only looking using standard tests then they won't find any evidence, but that isn't proof it doesn't exist

Many times they don’t even look. Their divine insight enables them to just know that nothing is wrong except for their pet explanation.

 

[Turtle]

That's what I thought he meant. We haven't found evidence, therefore there isn't any. But if they are only looking using standard tests then they won't find any evidence, but that isn't proof it doesn't exist

The problem starts with the medics just ruling out a few bad thing, but not testing anything related to ME/CFS, concluding nothing wrong, concluding it must be psychological.
Psychologists concluding now the patients are ours.
That's 3 times concluding without evidence and messing up our lives in a vicious circle.

 

[JellyBabyKid]

I suspect «this» means the lack of biological explanations for ME/CFS?

Sorry, foggy brain! I meant that ongoing symptoms of ME or LC post the acute infection or precipitating event are defined as mind-body symptoms because they are continuing after the acute infection has resolved. But if they are ongoing symptoms then the infection has not resolved, surely?

Also how is it that ulcers and epileptic seizures were mind-body presentations, until a cause was found, and now ME and LC are an evolution of / replacement mind-body symptoms, because they are persisting past the point of acute infection. The logical leap they are making doesn't make sense to me. If x is organic then isn't it more likely y is, but we haven't found the cause. Not x turned out to be organic so y must be a fault in the wiring as these symptoms have to be expressed somehow? This doesn't make sense to me and I am really struggling to understand it. I am clearly missing something or some part of the argument?

It’s also why for FND, they have started using positive signs for diagnosing it, instead of actually ruling out other causes

There is a positive, rule in sign for FND? Which is what?

 

[Utsikt]

Sorry, foggy brain! I meant that ongoing symptoms of ME or LC post the acute infection or precipitating event are defined as mind-body symptoms because they are continuing after the acute infection has resolved. But if they are ongoing symptoms then the infection has not resolved, surely?

No worries! Ongoing symptoms does not have to be caused by an ongoing infection. The viral persistence hypothesis is popular online, but I don’t think it has gained much traction here.

The logical leap they are making doesn't make sense to me.

This doesn't make sense to me and I am really struggling to understand it. I am clearly missing something or some part of the argument?

You’re not missing their argument. They have no argument. They literally say «it must be this because I think it is this», and interpret everything as supporting their opinion without entertaining other possible interpretations, unless it doesn’t support their opinion - at which point they just ignore it. Or they just lie and say that the evidence supports their opinion when it disproves it.

There is a positive, rule in sign for FND? Which is what?

They use a circular argument. If you have FND symptoms (which are any symptoms, really), you have FND. And the fact that you have FND proves that your symptoms are FND symptoms.

It isn’t intended to make any sense.

 

[JellyBabyKid]

Ongoing symptoms does not have to be caused by an ongoing infection

True. But at which point does it cross the threshold from real, organic illness to mind-body symptoms?

I am trying very hard not to be facetious, but am failing, I'm afraid.

They literally say «it must be this because I think it is this», and interpret everything as supporting their opinion

Oh. Really? I was really hoping I had missed some vital piece of the puzzle.

The chronic pain explanation makes some sense, and I say that as someone who lives with chronic pain and has been to lectures by leading scientific minds on it, attended pain clinics and tried a wide variety of solutions, so I am in the words of Mulder, "wiling to believe", but I am struggling to understand the interferential leap to "my brain is producing "ghost" chronic illness symptoms". The explanation that if you have symptoms in multiple systems and organs it must be mind-body doesn't work because how do you explain HIV, various cancers, Lupus etc, etc, which have multiple symptoms and an organic cause? X is organic but Y can't possible be because it doesn't sound likely?

Huh? Confused.

If you have FND symptoms (which are any symptoms, really), you have FND. And the fact that you have FND proves that your symptoms are FND symptoms.

Well, my head hurts now.

Thank you for engaging in this discussion and explaining it further, I appreciate the spoons used.

 

[Utsikt]

True. But at which point does it cross the threshold from real, organic illness to mind-body symptoms?

I am trying very hard not to be facetious, but am failing, I'm afraid.

It’s always organic because our brain is organic. But the mind-body folks believe that the brain can cause all kinds of symptoms and illnesses, including ME/CFS. They say this based on very flawed understandings of neuroscience. Although some of them still believe that the mind is separate from the body, but that’s just because some used to think of the mind as what the soul is in religion.

ME/CFS is probably caused by some other biological processes than viral persistence, but not the kind that the mind-body folks talk about.

Oh. Really? I was really hoping I had missed some vital piece of the puzzle.

No, there really isn’t more to it than that.