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Amitriptyline Downregulates Chronic Inflammatory Response to Biomaterial in Mice, 2020, Scheuermann et al

Discussion in 'Other health news and research' started by Dolphin, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10753-020-01356-0

    Amitriptyline Downregulates Chronic Inflammatory Response to Biomaterial in Mice
     
  2. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I know some people are very anti-this type of drug (i.e. a tricyclic) but I have found it very useful both for sleep and also various types of pain symptoms, e.g. IBS, TMJ, muscle and joint pains, headaches, et cetera. I think they've also helped me with noise and light sensitivity.
     
  3. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think it's often just that they've tried it and found that it did nothing, or made them worse.

    Personally, the tricyclics I've tried (including amitriptyline at everything from 5mg to 30mg) caused significant depersonalisation, which led to feelings of depression. I never got past that stage even after more than a year, and as there are no benefits to balance out the negatives, I don't take them.

    I would suggest people try amitriptyline if it's suggested by their GPs, though, because some patients clearly do benefit.
     
  4. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I saw benefit from it but it isn't the be all and end all, certainly.

    It stopped working as well as it used to for a while, then I accidentally took two one night, and the benefit came back. So occasionally, I nudge myself back into the 'it's working' zone by taking an extra dose at nighttime (usually if my PEM has been accumulating or my sleep has been worsening over any length of time). That seems to do the trick for now and avoids the side-effects of an increased dose daily.

    For me, the main benefit is waking up without the stiffness that I usually have and feeling more refreshed. Getting the right dose means I don't need to take any OTC painkillers for that, which I would have done without it.

    But there's definitely a grogginess that it can cause. Sometimes it verges on being like a hangover. I think that side-effect varies but is common among people who take it.

    For me, moving the drug forward an hour in the evening helped me overcome that, as did one cup of really strong coffee first thing, but others can't get rid of it.

    I think it's possibly related to how bad your brain fog is generally. Anecdotally, people have reported a link between sensitivity to TCAs and the severity of alcohol intolerance, though SSRIs are the most commonly linked in this way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  5. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes @adambeyoncelowe sedative hangover of amitryptiline and the fact it stopped being effective for sleep made me give it up.
    I can’t tolerate caffeine although I did rely on caffeine when I was in my long (7+) undiagnosed period. If I have any caffeine I will be awake all night in a tired but wired state.
    Also not to underestimate the weight gain side effect of amitryptiline.

    The hangover ugh very sluggish. I wonder sometimes if some of the people with ME who need to sleep a lot (especially those with milder ME) are experiencing sedation from amitryptiline and other commonly prescribed drugs. It took me over a year to become aware that amitryptiline hangover existed. When I raised it with the gp she was well aware of it yet never mentioned it when starting me off on the drug......

    I don’t think there is any research evidence that any medications are effective in people with ME and what side effects are experienced. It is rather a Russian roulette approach to prescribing and doesn’t take account of the reports that PWME don’t tolerate medications well.

    and don’t get me started about Pregabalin ........
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  6. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    By the way, I get more sleep on Surmontil (8-10.5 hours) than Amitriptyline (7-8.5 hours). I switched away from Surmontil when they stopped making the 10mg tablets but switched back so have spent 25 years or so on one or the other.
     
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  7. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have got my weight down to a low level on Surmontil (BMI of 20). My weight did go up on Amitriptyline which may or may not have been related to the drug (I was a bit of a workaholic and didn’t focus on my weight).

    I do feel a bit groggy on it but it’s not like I’m going to feel well off it: I will likely feel overstimulated by everything off it. And with less sleep I will feel more malaise so I accept the grogginess.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  8. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I just started low dose amitriptyline for nocturnal bruxism which is affecting my jaw and my teeth. It seemed to help the first day or two, but I'm not sure after that. It is helping my IBS though, as it has done in the past, with dialing down any sense of urgency I usually get in the first hour after waking.
     
  9. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It's crazy that we are still learning about the other effects of drugs that are really widely prescribed. Apparently fluoxetine (an SSRI) has slight anti-viral properties.
     
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  10. ringding

    ringding Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I very much recognise your experience @adambeyoncelowe . It's a staple of my medication at 10mg and has contributed (a bit) to me being able to work part time from home.
    Also, previously been presrcibed SSRI's (doctor thought I had anxiety when I was first falling ill with ME) and I've never had such a range of side effects from medication before. Even worse when weening off it, even very gradually, and it took a three months before all the related issues went away (brain zaps particularly).
     
  11. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Quite a lot of people stop these drugs in the first week or two; given it is widely said the side effects are worse in the first six weeks, I think they’re not in the best position to compare the positives and negatives.
     
  12. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    I stopped after 18 months. I can absolutely attribute sedation to Amitryptiline.
     
  13. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I’m surprised that Surmontil doesn’t get mentioned more in comparison to Amitriptyline. I remember reading Dr Myhill saying it was the only one of its type that didn’t have a negative effect on sleep architecture.
     
  14. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My ME doctor prescribed low dose amitriptyline for me in 1992, it made me feel muted shortly after taking it. It was not a good feeling so he told me to stop.

    Some pwME can't tolerate trazodone, but I do very well on low dose for sleep.
     
  15. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My GP had me on them around the late 90s.

    When I missed an appointment, made to inform her of the zombieism they caused, because I was so sedated I couldn't get out of the chair (couldn't see the point of it), I was told off, told I should no longer make appointments and only use the morning emergency surgery, and had my dosage increased from 75mg to 125mg.

    This was/is the only GP appointment I have ever missed.

    I still have enough to tranquilise a small to medium sized herd of elephants, as I stopped taking them after that, and she kept prescribing.

    For me they can be useful, occasionally, at much lower doses.

    ETA - AFAIK everything else I've ever been prescribed for sleep makes me itch, which keeps me awake.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  16. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    to add . . .

    I'm not sure why the ME doctor prescribed it for me in the first place? I didn't have pain or any issues that would require any prescription except for a viral infection that was pretty much resolved by the time I saw him as a patient.
     
  17. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    SSRIs were awful for me. Never again.
     
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  18. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I tried an SSRI once and was only getting 4 hours of sleep a night on it, while feeling overstimulated.

    They are very different types of drugs and I get a bit frustrated when people with ME talk about antidepressants as if they are all the same.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  19. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I've tried all sorts amitriptyline, SSRIs, NSRIs. Prescribed for both pain and sleep problems.

    Couldn't get on with any of them. I might feel a bit drowsy temporarily and then suddenly wide awake and absolutely exhausted. Very prone to "hangover" effects even from drugs that supposedly disappear quickly from the system.

    Frankly, if they worked, I wouldn't give a rats whether they were usually described as anti depressants or not. I have ME so there's been an immediate assumption of mental health problems due to the diagnosis alone. Taking a tri-cyclic, SSRI or NSRI won't make much difference.

    In some ways it might have made life easier as I'm sure some doctors thought I was just against taking an anti depressants & in some sort of denial. Being difficult about it. That then reinforces the view of a mental health patient who is resistant to treatment. :banghead:

    My attitude, if you find a drug that helps even if it is classed as an anti depressant then you're lucky. Why wouldn't you take it?
     
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  20. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Most doctors do tell you that a TCA taken for pain or sleep isn't supposed to be an antidepressant. It is in some of the NICE guidelines, e.g., neuropathic pain, IIRC.
     
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