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‘The Lightning Process’ and chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2022, Vallings

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic news - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by Andy, Oct 1, 2022.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    As Medical Advisor to the NZ ME Association (ANZMES) and having worked in this area of medicine for 40 years, I am concerned that recent GP educational events have promoted ‘The Lightning Process’,1,2 predominantly used for treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME). I do not consider that this is a treatment that GPs should be advocating for use in people with CFS/ME.

    Open access, https://www.publish.csiro.au/hc/Fulltext/HC22078#R1
     
  2. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Good to see Vallings warning against LP for ME/CFS in the New Zealand GP's journal.

    A pity she gives it any credit at all for being able to help anything and refers to it as 'a treatment offering psychological management and potential ‘cure’'.
    And says 'While I acknowledge that psychologically-based therapies such as the Lightning Process can have benefit for some patients with any illness, ...'

    It's not a treatment it's a brainwashing training program by unqualified quacks that causes serious long term harm.
     
  3. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Yeah, I thought her condemnation was pretty weak. Also frustrating to see her use CFS/ME.
     
    Solstice, MEMarge, Lilas and 13 others like this.
  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Well, no. Obviously. What a weird thing to say. The widespread belief that any kind of psychological anything MUST have some sort of benefit is just plain bizarre. Never privilege a lie. Mental healthcare is decades away from having a viable product, is frankly basically at the level where medicine was at the time of the Humors. Just because they're selling an unviable product doesn't change that.
     
    Solstice, FMMM1, rainy and 14 others like this.
  5. Ravn

    Ravn Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This part looks to me like a misguided attempt at "balance", a bit like journalists giving two sides equal airtime irrespective of the strengths of the respective arguments.

    As far as I know there's no solid evidence for the LP being useful for any condition though there are some poorly done studies claiming to provide evidence in for example pain, and selected bits of the LP may well help anxiety. But it would have been better to not mention other conditions at all, they're irrelevant in this context. Though it's conceivable Dr Vallings had to insert this bit to get the article published at all.

    I don't know Dr Vallings' thoughts but I rather suspect the main intention behind this article was to give patients and patient organisations in NZ something published against the LP to point to. It may work, I certainly hope so, though it's difficult to know how people not deeply familiar with the ME debates read and interpret an article like this. Given Dr Vallings clearly, and rightly, states her association with ANZMES, do readers unfamiliar with the ME debates interpret her arguments as biased or do they on the contrary take her experience with ME patients as authoritative expertise?

    We do have a huge problem with the LP in NZ with believers firmly ensconced in key positions of authority in the health and medical education systems. Some are passive obstacles to progress, which is quite bad enough, but others use their power to promote LP and mind-body ideas in general, including CBT/GET, and to obstruct counter views. As 'evidence' they like to present the Crawley paper and, for good measure, to 'prove' mind-body ideas, also papers by the likes of Fink and Wyller. Nuff said.

    So I hope Dr Vallings' article can be a small counter to all that. We also need some solid published literature documenting the harmful effects of LP. Currently we're stuck with your anecdote of recovery against my anecdote of harm. Time to step up to playing your published paper against my published paper but we're currently behind on that score. So if anyone is able to get something written and published, please please pretty please...
     
    Peter Trewhitt, Sean, Andy and 3 others like this.
  6. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I feel very ambivalent about statements like these being used to counter the Lightning Process. Yes, they might persuade some doctors to treat ME/CFS seriously, and yes, there might turn out to be some valid findings in amongst the ME/CFS publications of Tate and Gradisnik. But the sample size of the research in both of these people's labs is tiny, definitely at the level of preliminary research.

    And so what if people with ME/CFS have fewer TRPM3 receptors on the natural killer cells and neuroinflammation? There are plenty of people who believe that CBT can fix inflammation. Professor Tate's recent hypothesis papers are quite similar to the BPS vicious circle diagrams involving stress. The existence of physical problems is no barrier to the belief that the powerful mind can fix things, indeed, theories of somatisation embrace physical symptoms as evidence of the effects of a faulty mind.

    The article concludes:
    So, it's ok to promote it if you do do a careful evaluation of its suitability?

    Dr Vallings went on NZ national radio a couple of years back and did not dismiss the Lightning Process when given the opportunity - she said that it is useful for patients who have psychological issues. It's mentioned on the NZ news thread somewhere. Possibly this latest statement is better than nothing, possibly it just brings the Lightning Process to the attention of more possible customers and doctor advocates.
     
    MEMarge, Snow Leopard, Ravn and 8 others like this.
  7. RoseE

    RoseE Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Bruce Arroll, head of the Goodfellow Unit, Auckland University and LP supporter (training in it from what I understand) and Jenny Oliver, LP practitioner, were given the opportunity to respond to Dr Vallings article in the Journal. However, Dr Vallings was not given the chance to respond to Arroll, as would be normal practice.

    https://www.publish.csiro.au/hc/Fulltext/HC22105

     
    SNT Gatchaman, Hutan, Sean and 2 others like this.
  8. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Last edited: Oct 10, 2022
  9. RedFox

    RedFox Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's actually pretty poor. I perceive that BPS doctors consider their interventions curative or at least powerful. Those figures make the effectiveness seem minimal, even when flawed studies are taken at face value. If GET was actually curative, it would be stupid simple to implement. It could even be done on a self-help basis with an exercise bike. You'd just ride for 10 minutes, then 12, 14, 16 and so on. If it actually worked your PEM threshold would gradually rise until you stopped experiencing it.

    Now I'm starting to wish GET worked :). This is starting to sound easy. I feel like doctors misunderstand this point. I'm not against GET because I have some unjustified condition my illness is physical. I'm against it because it's an unproven therapy that harms people. It's scientific, not ideological.
     
    RoseE, Hutan, FMMM1 and 2 others like this.
  10. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Clearly, something bizarre happened at the NICE Guideline on CFS as four people with serious conflicts of interest resigned after having approved the guideline.

    What was bizarre was that good sense prevailed in such a murky world.
     
    Tom123, RedFox, SNT Gatchaman and 7 others like this.
  11. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    "a group Scandinavian psychologists"? Wyller and Flottorp are not psychologists.
     
    Peter Trewhitt, Lilas, Hutan and 2 others like this.
  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Looks very much like the latter then.

    I don't think pacing is a therapy. And, wow, that's quite the twisting of the outcomes. A 127,047 UK pounds cost for a benefit from pacing. Given pacing is just finding ways to cope with a reduced capacity for activity, nearly every participant in PACE was surely already doing some version of it before and during the trial, even the ones trying to adjust their daily activity to fit GET into their life. It is therefore to be expected that the trial does not demonstrate any additional benefit from pacing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2022
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  13. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    None of the numbers they cite here are even real. They mean absolutely nothing. What nonsense.
     
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  14. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don't understand what you've quoted there. The phrase "CBT is UK pound" doesn't appear in the article being discussed.
     
    Peter Trewhitt likes this.
  15. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    RedFox and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  16. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  17. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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