University of Victoria (Canada) article on development of EEG wearable

[Ravn]

A bit hyped but could have potential down the track. I wonder if Moreau is onto this team, he likes collaborating and seems keen on measuring stuff with wearables.

Brain burnout - January 24, 2020 - Suzanne Ahearne

Krigolson explains that the pattern of EEG data in each brain state—be it depression, fatigue or dementia—is distinctive. The system his team developed can identify each of these states by reading the brain waves.

What surprised the research team was that of the more than 2,500 people they’ve monitored so far across multiple occupations, few were able to accurately assess their own fatigue levels—many of whom exhibited brain states equivalent to being legally impaired. The current gold standard is to literally ask, “Are you too tired to work?” Clearly, that’s inadequate, he says. “Providing an objective way to measure that is going to save lives.”

More at link: https://www.uvic.ca/news/topics/2020+knowledge-brain-burnout+news

 

[Hoopoe]

What surprised the research team was that of the more than 2,500 people they’ve monitored so far across multiple occupations, few were able to accurately assess their own fatigue levels—many of whom exhibited brain states equivalent to being legally impaired.

That is exactly what I suspect happens often in ME/CFS and perhaps other conditions. People get used to feeling a certain way, forget what feeling normal was like, internalize disbelief/non-understanding from their social environment, they stop working or doing much, and don't often see other people that actually have good energy reserves to compare themselves too. That can lead people who have a serious fatigue problem not realizing how bad it actually is.

 

[rvallee]

That is exactly what I suspect happens often in ME/CFS and perhaps other conditions. People get used to feeling a certain way, forget what feeling normal was like, internalize disbelief/non-understanding from their social environment, they stop working or doing much, and don't often see other people that actually have good energy reserves to compare themselves too. That can lead people who have a serious fatigue problem not realizing how bad it actually is.

Oh, definitely most ME patients downplay their symptoms. Not all, definitely the vast majority. Which makes the whole "catastrophizing" thing look all that much worse, literally the complete opposite of reality. It's incredible what people can push through. After all everyone alive today is the product of thousands of generations in which pushing through pain and illness was necessary for survival, literally a major evolutionary trait.

The MUS project seeks to create the illusion that most health problems are actually purely psychological and exaggerated by patients. I think that reality is that people downplaying symptom severity and impact is far, far more common than the opposite, at least 10:1. This ideology will likely end up in ignominy as the worst failure in the history of medicine, possibly of all science. Given the many failures in the history of this field, this is exceptionally bad.

 

[rvallee]

Krigolson explains that the pattern of EEG data in each brain state—be it depression, fatigue or dementia—is distinctive. The system his team developed can identify each of these states by reading the brain waves.

This seems massively overstated. If we actually could distinguish those even using ordinary EEG it would be in widespread use and basically transform all of medicine as we know it. That is not the case so clearly this alleged test is not as advertised here.

There aren't any links or further details on this research in the article. This is quite an extraordinary claim. I sure am looking forward to such technological breakthrough.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

This is nonsense. The idea that an EEG is more reliable than you are to tell if you are fatigued is plain stupid. Being fatigue is defined by what it is like to you, not EEG. EEGs are completely useless for diagnosing anything of this sort.

 

[Snow Leopard]

This is nonsense. The idea that an EEG is more reliable than you are to tell if you are fatigued is plain stupid. Being fatigue is defined by what it is like to you, not EEG. EEGs are completely useless for diagnosing anything of this sort.

Such approaches might be more reliable that retrospective questionnaires that are subject to a wide variety of response biases (recall bias, social desirability, positivity/negativity etc).

Whether it actually works is a different question.

 

[Invisible Woman]

This is nonsense. The idea that an EEG is more reliable than you are to tell if you are fatigued is plain stupid. Being fatigue is defined by what it is like to you, not EEG. EEGs are completely useless for diagnosing anything of this sort.

Yes, I see what you're saying.

However, when I was well enough to be out and about more there were definitely times that my cognitive function and spacial awareness started to tank. Not just for an hour or two before I completely hit the buffers, but days when I was definitely way below par.

My self awareness, or cognitively ability was too impaired for me to pick up the signs, but was bad enough that my husband could.

But then I've always felt "fatigue" to be a secondary symptom to the loss of function rather than the cause of.

Maybe I'm talking about something different. Anyhow, I could have used the equivalent of a breathalyser test for function to see if I was safe to be let lose alone in a kitchen.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Tests of this sort are only any better than asking people how they are either if they have been shown to provide some sort of explanation in terms of physiology or shown to predict symptoms later -and usually both go together.

Correlation in a test is not in itself a sign of usefulness, even if it might seem to be and most doctors are convinced it is.

But the main point is that the claim that EEG correlates reliably with any clinical problems of this sort is, as far as I know, complete rubbish. EEGs are extraordinarily complex and variable. Specific patterns showing sites of origin of epilepsy can be found reasonably reliably but not a lot else as far as I know.

 

[Hoopoe]

This is nonsense. The idea that an EEG is more reliable than you are to tell if you are fatigued is plain stupid. Being fatigue is defined by what it is like to you, not EEG. EEGs are completely useless for diagnosing anything of this sort.

I'm not so sure. People make mistakes when they are fatigued. I know that I'm fatigued but I don't always realize that I'm too fatigued to be doing something until I make some mistake and mess up.

Being well aware of my capabilities and state of health at any moment is a skill that can and must be learned. The emphasis on pacing by us patients is because this doesn't come as easily.