Risk factors for severe ME/CFS, 2009, Pheby and Saffron

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic research - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by Hutan, Mar 13, 2025.

  1. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    https://bnu.repository.guildhe.ac.uk/id/eprint/9823/1/Pheby, Derek Risk factors for severe ME & CFS.pdf
    2009 paper
    Derek Pheby and Lisa Saffron

    Abstract

    ME/CFS is a serious illness affecting several hundred thousand British people. Some 25% of people with ME/CFS may be severely ill (housebound or bedbound), sometimes for decades. This observational, questionnaire-based study was designed to identify risk factors for severe disease. Exposure to potential risk factors, including familial risks, personality, and early management of the illness, was compared in 124 people with severe disease and 619 mildly ill controls. Severity was determined by self-report and the Barthel (activities of daily living) Index. Premorbid personality was assessed using the Neuroticism and Conscientiousness domains of the IPIP scale. Analysis was by tests of association and logistic regression. Early management of the illness appeared the most important determinant of severity. Having a mother with ME/CFS was also important. Smoking and personality were not risk factors, neurotic traits being more frequent among the less severely ill. Conscientiousness overall was not related to severity.
     
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  2. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I've put this 2009 paper in a the 'psychosomatic research' subforum as it investigates whether personality is a risk factor in the severity of ME/CFS. It seems to conclude that it is not.

    This paper has been cited as evidence of the need for early management in order to manage the risk of developing severe ME/CFS. Neither the information resource nor the abstract here suggests what 'early management' is associated with lower risk, so I thought it was worth having a look.
     
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  3. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    On personality type:

    I liked that the authors recognised that their investigation approach created a bias, with determination, stoicism and aspects of conscientiousness like to have been prevalent in those people with severe ME/CFS who chose to participate and actually finish the questionnaire.

    In fact, they were remarkably frank about the feedback they got from participants, who criticised the fact that they were contemplating the possibility that the illness was driven by personality and also the cognitively demanding nature of the survey.

    On other studies:
    (Note that years later Hickie and others wrote a very bad paper where they tortured the Dubbo data trying desperately to show that actually neuroticism was related to prolonged CFS.)
     
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  4. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    On depression:
     
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  5. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    On factors associated with severity:


    Familial factors
    Pre-illness exposures
     
  6. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Management in the early stages of the illness


    Conclusion
    I really don't think we can make much of the findings about management in the early stages. People who have severe ME/CFS or are naturally getting worse can be expected to have a poorer relationship with their doctors, versus others who aren't so affected or are improving. They are also more likely to get treated by psychologists. They are more likely to be dissatisfied with the treatments they are given.

    There isn't evidence here for people who are given activating therapies becoming worse - the right questions for that are not asked.

    Similarly, we would expect people with more severe illness to have more social problems including problems with social security - because their need is greatest, and they have the least capacity to jump through the hoops, and because the degree of skepticism about their illness is likely to be greatest. I think the direction of causality is 1. severe illness>>> 2. problems with medical and welfare staff and a longer diagnostic odyssey.

    Weirdly, given the comments about sex and familial relationships being predictive of severity, these are the items in the paper's model:
    • Occupation
    • Problems with social security
    • Interval between falling ill and diagnosis
    • Perceived value of initial treatment
    • Relationship with GP before and after diagnosis
    • Involvement of a psychiatrist in initial treatment
    I think there may have been some correlations e.g. between sex and occupation there.


    But yes, in summary, I don't think this paper should be cited as evidence that initial management makes a difference in disease outcomes. It doesn't track changes in severity from the first weeks until later.
     
  7. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I suspect that the people that are happy received less GET and more pacing (not a treatment). I’m severe due to the treatment I received the first two years - exercise. I have no way of proving any of this.
     
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  8. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    I've never been more thankful for being lost in the system than I am for having dodged the bullet of exercise treatment for ME when I dropped out of high school and got no help. In stead I got two years of taking things at my own pace and eventually was able to complete school and go to university.
     
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  9. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It’s absurd situation when you would rather have your severe illness ignored than getting the standard treatments. I’m glad you dodged the bullet!
     
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  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Before diagnosis, 2.9% of the people with mild severity got CBT while 6.5% of the people with severe severity got it. Also before diagnosis, 3.7% of the people with mild severity and 8.5% of the people with severe severity got GET. So, it's possible that these therapies made people get physically worse. It's certainly possible that these therapies contributed to poor relationships between the severe ME/CFS people and their health providers.

    But, it's also possible that people who were already struggling with being very ill were prioritised for places on CBT and GET, and that's why they got the treatments.

    I guess we need to track function and treatments in stratified Long Covid groups over time so that we can actually answer the question going forward.
     
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  11. bobbler

    bobbler Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That first quote box is interesting. In the factors associated with severity there are six and one was ‘involvement of a psychiatrist’ but there isn’t detail whether this harmed (ie an indicator people got more severe because of being put through bad treatment due to errrant suggestions of psychosomatic cause) or was associated with less severity

    I haven’t had the chance to look (and won’t fit a bit so might forget) whether the paper provides more detail on this
     
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  12. Yann04

    Yann04 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My mother has suspected mild ME/CFS and I have very severe ME/CFS.

    I was also a student exercising 6+ hours per week which the thing says are risk factors. It’s weird how much it mateches my n=1.
     
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  13. Creekside

    Creekside Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I didn't do any conscious management of my ME for the first 10 or so years, since I didn't know I had ME. I didn't even recognize PEM as a reliable effect of some activities for maybe 8 years, and didn't make an effort to avoid those activities. So, I think sensitivity to exertion, for PEM and for long-term worsening, is another of those sub-group things. Until they can identify the factor involved in that, it's safest to recommend avoidance of exertion.
     
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  14. Yann04

    Yann04 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If the mother having ME increases risk finding is replicated in a larger cohort, would that hint that something that makes ME more likely or worsens ME severity might be hiding in the X chromosome?

    (Potentially also explaining the female bias)
     
  15. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    If somethings hides in the X chromosome, women are usually less at risk since we have a copy. But mitochondria DNA is from the mother's line too.
     
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  16. Cinders66

    Cinders66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don't think anyone Who's been managed badly and become severe doubts that bad management & exertion is why they got severe. We know and warn people about the harms of repeated post-exertional malaise because there is correlation/ risks, so it's not just conjecture. It's like the correlation between eating a lot of cakes and noticing you're getting fat, if you've not got any other good reason as to why you've increased a lot in weight & you know that lots of calories is associated with weight gain.

    & in m,e the association with exertion and decline ,occurs in lots of people
    After thirty years of people with m.e accumulating moderate or severe or entrenched disability through not getting good early care *plus* the reported happier outcomes of those who did, or at least were not encouraged to push on or exert, . I think we can speak with some confidence on this and I wish we were brave enough to frame severe m.e more in exertion- injury terms. it seems incompatible to me that doctor Shepherd is confident to make chirpy statements about early diagnosis making m.e quite easily manageable but doesn't feel confident enough to directly link terrible NHS care, late diagnosis and pressure to inappropriately exert with the HIGH, Levels of disability, sometimes profound, We have an m.e in the UK..

    I quoted that paper to an advocate early on in long covid, who had little grasp of the link between poor early stage management and bad outcomes and illness severity, risking PWLC long term harm that we have endured. She seemed to think the terrible severe ME cases we hear of were Just one of those unfortunate things (which i think is only in a minority of cases) or was related to initial illness severity etc, which probably reflects weak charities messaging around this. Another option to reference is the 2019 patient survey for NICE, where about 10% of people reported being severe pre get & CBT period of "treatment" & 40% after.

    I would like to see more research on Post EX malaise in the m.e community to tease out difference in experience eg between male and female or just general presentations & see how diverse - some people seem to report a ceiling of 48 hours of feeling bad and other people can go on for weeks, pain and immune symptoms in response to exertion can vary. I think, even within an m.e diagnosis, there may be different experiences of what is called post-exertional malaise & so different risks associated with exertion.
     
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  17. Yann04

    Yann04 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Doesn’t that depend the illness. Sometimes it defaults to the “healthy” copy (I think that’s called lyonisation), so males would be substantially more at risk, while in some illness just one of the two X chromosomes having a defect will be enough to trigger the disease, (I think that’s called X dominant).

    Anyways we aren’t assuming a genetic illness, but perhaps a genetic factor increasing likelihood or severity of illness.

    Interesting note about maternal inheritance of mitochondrial genes.
     
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  18. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Seeing a psychiatrist was associated with having severe ME/CFS (versus having mild ME/CFS). But, it's just an association; there are at least a couple of reasons why someone with severe ME/CFS might be more likely to be given a referral to a psychiatrist. It's not proof that seeing a psychiatrist worsened ME/CFS.
     
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  19. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Does anyone have a link to that readily to hand?
     
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  20. Yann04

    Yann04 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Wouldn’t you expect a bias the other way too. A lot of [very] severe people wouldn’t be able to make it to an appointment like that or hold a conversation like that.

    (Though it’s likely those people were excluded from the study due to selection biases too).
     
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