[Project description][MAP-FAT] Mechanisms of Persistent Fatigue - Wyller

[Utsikt]

Mechanisms of Persistent Fatigue - Prosjektbanken

Persistent fatigue (PF) is a highly prevalent transdiagnostic symptom. Acute infection is a common trigger of PF, as exemplified by ‘Long COVID’ . PF is an under-researched field, with scarce knowledge of disease mechanisms as well as treatment and preventive measures. Existing knowledge on PF...

prosjektbanken.forskningsradet.no

Wyller has just received 4.5M NOK ($440k, €390k, £340k) in funding from The Research Council of Norway (Forskningsrådet) for a project on what he calls Persistent Fatigue.

Project period: 2025-2028

Project summary:

Persistent fatigue (PF) is a highly prevalent transdiagnostic symptom. Acute infection is a common trigger of PF, as exemplified by ‘Long COVID’ .

PF is an under-researched field, with scarce knowledge of disease mechanisms as well as treatment and preventive measures.

Existing knowledge on PF suggests complex interactions between functional brain alterations, immunological aberrations and disturbances of autonomic nervous system activity.

Previous findings have been interpreted in light of two alternative models: A body-to-brain mechanism highlighting immunological aberrations as the primary mechanism, and a brain-to-body mechanism where functional brain alteration is seen as the central element whereas immunological alterations are regarded secondary phenomena mediated by autonomic disturbances.

The multinational and collaborative Mechanism of Persistent Fatigue (MAP-FAT) project is determined to scrutinize both these potential brain-body interactions in PF.

MAP-FAT will exploit an existing health registry on post-infective fatigue (preparatory part) and conduct a de novo post-infective cohort study (main part) of n=150 individuals with acute Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) infection and n=150 healthy controls followed for six months.

Investigations include:
a) Clinical and demographic assessment
b) Questionnaire charting
c) Multimodal brain MRI
d) Autonomic cardiovascular assessment
e) Deep immunological profiling
f) Behavioral experiments.

The behavioral experiments are specifically designed to disentangle the relative contributions of priors and sensory input for the experience of PF.

In addition, one of them includes concurrent brain fMRI, autonomic assessment, and immunological profiling during pharmacological manipulations, and is therefore key for addressing the causal association between functional brain alterations, autonomic activity and immunological aberrations.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Sounds like re-inventing an egg-shaped wheel.

 

[Chandelier]

As of today, 4.5m NOK
= $ 440’171
= € 381’749

 

[Utsikt]

As of today, 4.5m NOK
= $ 440’171
= € 381’749

Thank you! I’ve added dollars, euros and pounds to the post.

 

[Utsikt]

Sounds like re-inventing an egg-shaped wheel.

To me it sounds like an expensive excuse for running behavioural experiments on EBV patients.

They will be looking for bio things where they know they won’t find anything of note, and then they’ll find some correlations between some of the questionnaire or behavioural test, and spin that into a one-way causal interpretation in favour of their theories.

 

[Utsikt]

Here’s another description from Neuron-Eranet:

PROJECT: JTC2024 - Brain-Body: MAP-FAT - ERA-NET NEURON

www.neuron-eranet.eu

Project team​

• Vegard Bruun Bratholm Wyller (Coordinator) Norway (RCN)
• Lars Tjelta Westlye Norway (RCN)
• Michael Witthoeft Germany (BMBF)
• Victor Pitron France (ANR)

Persistent fatigue (PF), which is often trigged by acute infections (such as COVID-19), is and under-researched problem with detrimental consequences for the suffering patients, their families and society.

PF is associated with autonomic and immunological aberrations; one hypothetical model considers these aberrations to a cause of PF (body-to-brain mechanism), whereas another model considers them to be consequences of PF (brain-to-body mechanism).

The present project aims to scrutinize both models.

Firstly, a recently established registry of post-infective cohort studies (n~24,000) will be exploited to determine: a) Predictors of PF development; and b) Brain network dynamics underpinning PF.

Secondly, we will experimentally assess the dynamic relationship between brain, autonomic and immunological activity, and the subjective experience of fatigue at early convalescent stage and at six months follow-up in a de novo prospective cohort of EBV-infected patients (EBV-P) and healthy controls (HC).

The present project will generate a clinical and scientific impact by creating high-quality new knowledge and enabling its diffusion through open science practice. We will provide comprehensive knowledge on potentially amendable underlying mechanisms and thus pave the way for prevention and therapy.

 

[rvallee]

PF is associated with autonomic and immunological aberrations; one hypothetical model considers these aberrations to a cause of PF (body-to-brain mechanism), whereas another model considers them to be consequences of PF (brain-to-body mechanism).

The present project aims to scrutinize both models.

But there aren't 'two models'. there isn't even one. All we have is data and speculation. Even trying to lump up all the weird psychosomatic models as one thing is wrong, there are literally dozens and they don't even make any sense! And the framing of "brain-to-body-to-brain" is just cringe-worthy.

Sounds about perfect for the psychosomatic slot machine. You put a coin/study in it, you get back the same coin/get to do another identical study. Well, it's not the same coin, there's a bank of coins that just keeps filling it up. But all they ever get back from putting in a coin is another coin, gets them to take another turn at cranking the slot and getting another coin in return.

There is terrible mismanagement of research funding and priorities. It's so weird that this is happening alongside real science. This just isn't it.

 

[Covidivici]

But there aren't 'two models'. there isn't even one. All we have is data and speculation. Even trying to lump up all the weird psychosomatic models as one thing is wrong, there are literally dozens and they don't even make any sense! And the framing of "brain-to-body-to-brain" is just cringe-worthy.

Sounds about perfect for the psychosomatic slot machine. You put a coin/study in it, you get back the same coin/get to do another identical study. Well, it's not the same coin, there's a bank of coins that just keeps filling it up. But all they ever get back from putting in a coin is another coin, gets them to take another turn at cranking the slot and getting another coin in return.

There is terrible mismanagement of research funding and priorities. It's so weird that this is happening alongside real science. This just isn't it.

Busywork.
It's what makes the world go round (faster and faster, as it circles the drain).

 

[Sean]

Persistent fatigue (PF) is a highly prevalent transdiagnostic symptom.​

Which does not mean it has the same causal processes nor management/treatment, if any.

PF is an under-researched field, with scarce knowledge of disease mechanisms as well as treatment and preventive measures.​

So WTF have clowns like you been doing for the last few decades with all that research money and our lives? Playing tiddlywinks?

Yet you remain certain in your clinical, medico-legal, and policy advice.

 

[bicentennial]

But heh, here is the genius who can solve that ancient conundrum, which came first, the chicken or the egg, he will persist and report back in due course, a man who likes his chicken with his egg.

Two alternative models is where he starts, because it is either one way or the other, the body tells the brain or the brain tells the body, can't be both, primacy must be asserted.

Not holistic, but maybe he will discover the sensory-motor nerves, however the yin-yang of any hierarchy should clinch it. Yes I am biased but also I am fairly sure he has a foregone conclusion worrying away in his frontal lobes.

He must do something about all those pesky people telling the psycho-social theorists how many body organs can cause an encephalopathy, its such an interruption to the exposition of primary anxiety & stress being the "well-known" genesis of all ills in question

Maybe he thinks the psycho-social mind can be slotted back in after the bodily brain has been determined to dominate the rest of the body.

 

[bicentennial]

But you cannot have the brain stand in for the mind. The brain is part of the body. The central nervous system is part of the nervous system which is a bodily organ. All the bodily organs are integral.

In this shower of verbal connections, the "mind-body connection" is not biological, rather ineffable. The biological gut-brain connection can be mentioned with scientific gravity in an Inquest, because it is "well-known", but:

- upon discussion, it can barely admit to a 2-way connection before reverting to the one-way connection of anxiety and stress causing tummy upsets, which explains everything because it is "well-known"

If you insist, the Psychosomatic Masters Degree from the Techtitute will detail the Neuro-Endocrine-Immune connection we hear so much about - 1.10. Intermediate Neurophysiological, Neuroendocrine, Immunological and Psychic Mechanisms

And throw in the heart rate and blood pressure - well-known bodily manifestations of mental anxiety and stress, as are tummy upsets and so anything to do with the gut is fair game too, and the NHS did tell me ME / CFS is a symptom of POTS and IBS

But the brain-body connection - does this person think the brain is not part of the body. We call it central in the nervous system. The kidney controls the salt levels in the brain. Even the bladder has a say in the matter. A mild liver encephalopathy can reverse your sleep cycles. Professor Wyller is way out of his depth.

 

[bicentennial]

We will provide comprehensive knowledge on potentially amendable underlying mechanisms and thus pave the way for

prevention and therapy.

Oh - that sounds - ominous.

I have heard of behavioural science applied in behavioural analysis to do the behavioural assessments and modifications, the behavioural therapy.

But behavioural prevention - how do COFFI and Professor Wyller expect to prevent his child and adolescent patients from persisting. Maybe its one of these Techtitute methods:

5.4. Desensitization in Psychosomatic Disorders
5.5. Exposure with Response Prevention
5.6. Stress Inoculation
5.7. Overcorrection

Every 5 year old can be inoculated, with their parent's permission, subject to their informed consent, subject to the King's Personal Data Act (on the Project Website)

 

[bicentennial]

Oh, Professor Wyller will only inoculate 5 year olds who fit the predictors (and its not all in the mind, its all in the brain you see):

Firstly, a recently established registry of post-infective cohort studies (n~24,000) will be exploited to determine:

a) Predictors of PF development; and

b) Brain network dynamics underpinning PF.

Thankyou, I was wondering where COFFI came into it. COFFI supplied the registry:

 

[Hutan]

Thankyou, I was wondering where COFFI came into it. COFFI supplied the registry:

and the prejudice.