1. Guest, 'News In Brief' from w/c 3rd Dec can be read here.
    Dismiss Notice

Lancet 'Insight': In defence of the biopsychosocial model

Discussion in 'Health News and Research unrelated to ME/CFS' started by Indigophoton, Apr 21, 2018.

Tags:
  1. Indigophoton

    Indigophoton Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    9,608
    Location:
    UK
    A short piece. It's not much of a defence.
    (emphasis added)
    If only.
    I liked that bit.

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(18)30165-2/fulltext
     
    Joh, zzz, Invisible Woman and 21 others like this.
  2. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    10,337
    It's difficult to critize a model that is vague and extraordinarily broad at the same time, since it can mean almost anything. Simple questions and answers are more valuable than complex ones.
     
  3. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    2,847
    Perhaps written by this person?

    https://lindagask.com/

    ETA:
    It seems our Anil Van Der Zee is familiar with her as I see a comment on a blog article there.

    Would love to see a rebuttal argument.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  4. Indigophoton

    Indigophoton Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    9,608
    Location:
    UK
    I don't think it needs a whole article to rebut it. The basic argument is:
    Leaving aside the fact that the application of the BPS model to ME disproves this contention (it has not been useful, quite the opposite, and they have been inflexible and very dogmatic), this argument suggests a lack of understanding of science. Finding out whether a model is right or wrong, disproven or supported by the evidence, is essential. The Higgs boson, for instance, with all its implications, had to be found to become genuinely useful.

    BPS haven't even put forward testable hypotheses, as far as I know. We could take PACE as a test of the model - they did say that was a test of their philosophy, after all - and it failed.
     
  5. alktipping

    alktipping Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    1,104
    their idea of a scientific approach seems to be avoiding any evidence that contradicts their philosophy.
     
  6. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,291
    Likes Received:
    21,773
    "Engel reminded us that the value of a scientific model should be measured not by whether it is right or wrong, but how useful it is".

    I can accept that usefulness can sometimes become apparent long before some theory is proven to be right or not, but in that instance it is most certainly not a scientific model! And I find it hard to see how a scientist could say that.

    Back in history metal workers found that they could work iron in ways to make it much stronger that just the raw iron. They did not understand the science of heat treatments, nor did they necessarily realise that the carbon content in their furnaces was actually turning the iron into a steel alloy. But the good artisans would have developed their own methods, possibly developing on empirical skills honed through generations. In a sense they had evolved an empirical model that was extremely useful ... but it was not a scientific model.
     
    alktipping, Amw66, Allele and 4 others like this.
  7. BruceInOz

    BruceInOz Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    1,592
    Location:
    Tasmania
    I don't think a model is necessary for it to be science though. Careful empirical observation is the stuff that should inform the development of a model or hypothesis and is part of the scientific process. So is an untested hypothesis since it informs what evidence should be collected to confirm or deny it. But accepting a hypothesis as useful without any supporting evidence - now that's not science.
     
  8. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,785
    Likes Received:
    30,670
    It may not need it but I have a feeling it might get a bit more than just an article. Can't think why...
     
  9. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    6,410
    Location:
    Mid-Wales
    alktipping, Amw66, Snowdrop and 11 others like this.
  10. Woolie

    Woolie Committee member

    Messages:
    2,079
    Likes Received:
    12,760
    I prefer the idea of a biosocial model. Consider the person's social/environmental situation, and if its not optimal for health (e.g. damp house, loneliness, can 't get access to fresh food, living with addicts), support the person to change it.

    To me, the psychological is just an emergent property of the interaction between environment (social, etc) and biology. You deal with those two, you've got it covered.

    Its kind of crazy the way we think the psyche can somehow operate independently of environment and biology - that people can think themselves out of depression, illness, etc. You change the body or the environment (whichever is most implicated), the psyche will follow.
     
    TiredSam, Sarah, Joh and 20 others like this.
  11. Luther Blissett

    Luther Blissett Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,650
    Likes Received:
    12,583
    I'd prefer if they stayed the hell away from sociological models/texts because they can't even understand the basic foundations of Structural Functionalism. I think it appealed to them because it contained the concept of deviance, and they put a moral value on the deviance.

    The concept of deviance (imho) was/is value neutral, just a measuring of things that are not part of the norm. In most cases the society adjusts over time to accept the deviance and include it inside the norm. That was part of the point of studying the deviances in the first place, to see how and why this happens. To study how societies adapt and evolve to include what was once not included, and to observe how this contributes to social cohesion.

    In the BPS case, they have decided that our deviance is immoral, and done their best to create structures and institutions that deny us access to being included, right down to basic social necessities like food, shelter, income and services. If they understood the basics of their own supposed theories, they would understand how this is likely to be unsuccessful over time, just like it was in our societies treatment of women voting, acceptance of homosexuality, various disabilities and illnesses.
     
    TiredSam, Arnie Pye, Woolie and 16 others like this.
  12. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,785
    Likes Received:
    30,670
    Bertalanffy's general systems theory is actually unscientific in the wider sense of being untestable. So it is outside even empirical models that are testable and reliable.

    Generalsystems theory denies that the dynamics of a system can be predicted from dynamic components. It says that the whole system shows 'emergent properties' that cannot be predicted. It is in this sense anti-scientific and I suspect has never actually been of any value.

    There is a lot of bullshit about this. The strange attractor states of chaotic systems are often given as examples. However they are not because they can be modelled with computers that DO generate the overall dynamics from component dynamic relations. If you can run something on a computer it cannot be emergent in GST sense.

    As usual it is just muddled thinking.

    Again this is an indication of the anti-scientific stance of psychiatry.
     
  13. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    520
    Likes Received:
    3,975
    The incredibly "useful," but wrong, Ptolemaic world system was so accurate (it was just as good at matching and predicting observations as the later Copernican system) that it managed to hold science back for 1500 years.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  14. alktipping

    alktipping Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    1,104
    per Unum seem to have their greedy and malicious fingers every where I doubt they will ever be held to account for their insidious corruption of the british benefits agency, or their on going influence in the nhs ccgs.
     
  15. James Morris-Lent

    James Morris-Lent Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    2,199
    Location:
    United States
    I can't help but think this whole predicament relating to our humble condition is indicative of some sort of fundamental rot in the domains of science.

    Too many people in 'scientific' fields are afflicted with a smarmy conceit; their title and status appease vain pretensions to claims of rarefied knowledge and achievement but camouflage a lax dedication to the fundamental tenets of scientific pursuit. Others are more conscientious but perhaps lose heart when confronted with the limitations of our current understandings; not recognizing the grave importance of upholding an honest position of 'we don't know', they fail to mount a vigorous defense of these knowledge 'gaps' against seductive pseudoscientific speculations that seek to establish beachheads upon them.

    This leaves these fields prone to excessive endogenous production of stupid ideas and vulnerable to infection via Trojan horse; once established, these misbegotten or malicious ideas can gain vastly greater power and longevity they ever should.
     
  16. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,637
    Likes Received:
    47,842
    Location:
    UK
    I agree, @James Morris-Lent.
    I'd put it more bluntly.
    Too many people gain power by claiming they are doing good science when they are doing bad science, then misuse that power to perpetuate their bad science.
     
  17. Adrian

    Adrian Administrator

    Messages:
    3,050
    Likes Received:
    14,857
    Location:
    UK
    Some are. Many are concerned about careers and end up following the fashion in research, I suspect in part as that is where the money is. Some who aren't very good at science seem to take up positions in academic or research management and have way too much influence.

    Many if not most go into science because they like the challenge of finding out new stuff and solving the hard problems. I think one of things that Ron Davis did well was try to set ME up as a hard problem worth working on. But research costs and money is required for most research.
     
  18. Woolie

    Woolie Committee member

    Messages:
    2,079
    Likes Received:
    12,760
    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:!!
     
  19. James Morris-Lent

    James Morris-Lent Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    2,199
    Location:
    United States
    Nicely put. I think this structural view is an important complement and qualifier to what I'm trying to articulate. I mean, my perspective is that some people are pretty crummy but most are decent; they're just operating within big forces beyond their control that tend to funnel them into the categories I'm proposing. I'm kind of trying to gear up to write an essay, so hopefully I can marry these two perspectives.
    I have no wish to trash people who don't deserve it.
     
  20. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,147
    Likes Received:
    9,482
    A warning sign for snake-oil is its almost miraculous claim to cure a wide range of unrelated conditions.

    Like the Lightning Process, for example.

    I agree. It seems more an end result or outward expression of those two interacting factors. Might be useful as some kind of diagnostic marker, but it's role in causing poorer outcomes (especially long-term) is not so certain.
     

Share This Page