Do diagnostic criteria for ME matter to patient experience with services and interventions?, 2023, Kielland et al

Discussion in 'ME/CFS research' started by Midnattsol, Apr 29, 2023.

  1. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    Full title: Do diagnostic criteria for ME matter to patient experience with services and interventions? Key results from an online RDS survey targeting fatigue patients in Norway

    Abstract:
    Public health and welfare systems request documentation on approaches to diagnose, treat, and manage myalgic encephalomyelitis and assess disability-benefit conditions. Our objective is to document ME patients’ experiences with services/interventions and assess differences between those meeting different diagnostic criteria, importantly the impact of post-exertional malaise. We surveyed 660 fatigue patients in Norway using respondent-driven sampling and applied validated DePaul University algorithms to estimate Canadian and Fukuda criteria proxies. Patients on average perceived most interventions as having low-to-negative health effects. Responses differed significantly between sub-groups for some key interventions. The PEM score was strongly associated with the experience of most interventions. Better designed and targeted interventions are needed to prevent harm to the patient group. The PEM score appears to be a strong determinant and adequate tool for assessing patient tolerance for certain interventions. There is no known treatment for ME, and “do-no-harm” should be a guiding principle in all practice.

    Full paper:
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13591053231169191
     
  2. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm happy to see this published, the results have been mentioned in various talks by the researchers already. I don't have the energy to read it now though.
     
  3. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Great! A new publication from TjenestenogMEg - about ME patient's experiences with the health care system.

    Here is a summary they've shared on Facebook.

    Google translated:

    Today, the second research article from the project was published. The article answers the Research Council's questions about ME sufferers' experiences with regular services and measures for the patient group.

    The BEHOVME call asked applicants to use the Canda criteria, and together with Leonard Jason from DePaul, we believe we came up with a strategy that produced good estimates for this group.

    In the qualitative interviews in the project, there were two aspects of services and measures that appeared to be particularly relevant. Firstly, whether the service/measure was experienced as useful in relation to the disease, and secondly, whether the patients experienced being recognized by the therapist, often formulated as being "seen and understood". That is why we have asked about these two things for most services and measures.

    There are a lot of numbers in the article, but briefly we present the data in two ways:

    1. What proportion of patients benefit from each service/measure, and

    2. what is the average score for usefulness/recognition for each of the services?

    We compare those patients who meet the Canada criteria with those patients who only meet the Fukuda criteria based on the algorithms from Jason/DePaul. We have looked at whether the differences between the two groups are statistically significant when it comes to some of the services/measures.
    In addition, we look at the effect of PEM on the experience of usefulness and recognition of services and measures.

    The main findings are that:

    1. Less than half of the patients experience benefit from the most common measures for ME sufferers today, for rehabilitation this proportion is down to 20% and for cognitive therapy, 16%.

    2. For most measures, the average score for usefulness is negative.

    3. The extent of the negative health consequences reported about NAV's work trial initiative appears to be disturbing.

    4. The patient group who meet the Canada criteria consistently have worse experiences with services and measures than the group who only meet the Fukuda criteria.

    5. The difference in the proportion of Canada and Fukuda patients who experienced benefit from CBT and rehabilitation was statistically significant, even in a limited sample.

    6. Degree of PEM is related to perceived usefulness/recognition in almost all aspects of most services and measures, and the effect of PEM is largely statistically significant.

    7. Degree of PEM thus appears as a possible indicator of whether a patient will experience recognition/benefit from a service or measure.

    8. Patients more often experience recognition than benefit from measures/services, but the proportion of patients who do not experience being seen and understood in certain areas can still be considered unsatisfactory.

    9. Negative average scores in the perceived benefit of an intervention should be a reminder that the overriding principle for all health care is to do no harm.

    10. The relatively low proportion of patients who experience being seen and understood in many services and measures should remind us of the importance of recognition in order to ensure good synergies between the psychological, social and somatic in an investigation and follow-up process.



     
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  4. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They also link to an article from one of the two research organisations behind this project, Fafo.

    Ny forskning om ME-pasienters møte med tjenestene
    google translation: New research on ME patients' encounter with health care services

    quote:

    A new research project shows that ME sufferers quite often experience public services and measures as both unhelpful and unappreciative. The researchers expect that their findings will be debated, and we have spoken to them about how they have chosen methods in the project to be able to take into account both the challenges that the Research Council included in its call for proposals, and to be able to overcome some of the methodological challenges that have been pointed out in other surveys in this field.
     
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  5. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for adding Kalliope!

    This image from the article at FaFo's own page of what experience pwME have with various treatments they have to do is quite damning.
    Translated color scale: "Very negative", "Negative", "Neutral", "Positive" "Very positive"
    Translated y-axis (from the top): Gammanorm, Coping course*, Psychologist, Low Dose Naltroxen, Physiotherapist, Psychiatrist, Cognitive Therapy, Rehabilitation, Lightning Process, Work training**
    [​IMG]

    *Mestringskurs is a course that should be about an individual disease, providing information about the disease to better understand what is going on and help adapt to living with the disease
    **Arbeidsutprlving is trying out different type of work to see if one is able to do it. In the case of NAV/Disability, one can unfortunately experience being pushed to make onesself worse "to prove a point", as otherwise the disability may not be believed.

    Edit: Changed the wording to make it clear this is the patient's experience of the treatment in question, not necessarily "a response" as was first written.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2023
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  6. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A mere slogan, words on a wall. Nothing more, unfortunately. A good idea turned upside down by capricious exemptions.
     
  7. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It's very likely that this BPS ideology is the absolute worst model ever to be invented and put into practice by professionals. I don't think there's anything even 1% as bad as this anywhere, it's simply staggering in how absolutely awful it is, and the fact that the response from the medical profession to being shown again and again that it is awful is simply to keep escalating more and more, adolescent level of defiance in front of clear evidence.

    The more the model is challenged, including factually, the deeper the commitment to its infinite success. This is a clear mark of a belief system. It is a belief system, and it is likely the single worst model any group of professionals have ever managed to put together. It checks all the mark of pseudoscience, is widely hated and criticized, while having zero evidence for it. But what it has is infinite commitment, every single challenge bring an equal or greater counterforce into the woo direction.

    This is truly where expertise died, at least until the whole thing is fully debunked by AIs using nothing but pointing out that logical fallacies are not valid evidence of anything.
     
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  8. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    That is, a cult.
     
  9. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Can somebody post the full text for this or alternatively send it to me as a private message, please.

    I get as far as:
    Andelen deltakere som identifiserte seg med ulike benevnelser for sykdommen, og andelen som bare definerte seg som enten CFS eller ME.

    Les mer

    But then when I click on "les mer" ["read more"] it doesn't give me any more. I think the problem may relate to my browsers trying to translate it but perhaps there is a problem with the website even for Norwegian people?
     
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  10. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I found the discussion of the sampling method very interesting. It claims to lead to a less biased sample than simply using the people who are most inclined to up reply to surveys which could be a big problem with ME surveys. The theory sounds plausible though who knows how good it is in practice.
     
  11. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    This does look like an interesting and useful study. I haven't read the paper yet.

    I just would like to point out, in a pedantic way, that the wording in the article i.e. 'what proportion of patients benefit from a therapy' is not an accurate description of what has been measured here. The abstract is more careful but even there, there is a suggestion that the patients experience benefit as a result of a therapy.

    Actually it is 'patients reporting experiencing a benefit' as a result of the therapy. They may not be experiencing a benefit (or harm) because of the therapy. They may not even be experiencing a benefit (or harm) at all, they may just think that they are.

    For example, that 9% of people who report experiencing a benefit from the Lightning Process will consist of some people who have in fact improved, but the cause of that improvement is almost certainly not due to the course they did. And it will also include people who think they have benefited when they actually haven't improved at all. It might also include people who benefited from the therapy because they had a chance to interact with other people with ME/CFS and found some new friends - so the benefit may not have anything to do with increased function.

    The reason for the pedantry is that I would not like BPS people to use this study to point to the 16% of people who report benefitting from cognitive therapy and say 'look, these therapies are effective for some people! They are valid useful therapies. Why would you deny people with ME the opportunity to undertake them by not including them as options in ME/CFS information materials?'
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2023
  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Gammanorm?
    What organisation is offering this therapy?
     
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  13. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    There is nothing more to be read, I think they really only meant to have a link to the article in that space.

    I dislike how some are arguing that CFS is different from ME, and maybe those with CFS may benefit. Some even go so far as to say that those with burnout and similar WILL benefit from CBT/GET. To me the repetition of "some may benefit" is damaging to us, as that it what is sticking in people's head, and I don't think everyone with say burnout will benefit from CBT anyway.

    There has been doctors that have provided gammanorm off label, but I don't know how common it is/has been.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2023
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  14. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    Forskning.no have finally written about this study, it was no surprise who the author was (have written many pro-cbt/get/"holistic" articles previously and not least added fuel to fire about patients harming research). So of course patients only "have an opinion" they have been made worse, and the fact that people who have not become healthy are not part of the patient set is a draw-back worth focusing on. Silje Reme is interviewed and gives her opinion on "fatiguing illnesses" and how "some patients" experience stigma and lack of knowledge. I don't quite see why it seemed more relevant to get a knowledgable fibromyalgia patient to talk about the study than an ME patient, except of course make everything the same in true FND fashion.

    Halvparten av ME-syke mener de ikke får hjelp av helsetjenestene og NAV
    Half of ME sufferers believe they do not get help from the health services and NAV

    Some quotes (not in order they appear in the text)
    Author of this piece have supported Live Landmarks LP study, so not surprising she does not mention that Lightning process was asked about, instead writes this on alternative treatments:
    "The researchers also asked about alternative remedies. Many had tried one of them, and of these, 60 per cent thought it had a positive effect on their health, despite the fact that there is no scientific documentation that it has an effect on ME, according to the ME association ."

    Throughout the text, the author is careful to use "believe" about ME patients experiences, ie. "believe they become more sick". Contrast with FaFo researcher that says:
    "It is particularly disturbing that so many ME sufferers find that their health gets worse during Nav's work trial, she said further."

    I'm glad FaFo included this finding that it seemed more help that health care left you alone rather than trying to "help":
    Ten families with young people with ME were followed up after three years.

    - Here we saw improvement, but they were not back in full time work or studies. And it appeared that the improvement came from the fact that the health and welfare services had withdrawn, rather than as a result of measures, writes Kielland.

    And in contrast to those worried about the patient that has recovered not being part of studies on patients, FaFo is more worried about that the severe is not able to take part :)
     
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  15. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    An official English translation has now been posted on the ScienceNorway website
    https://sciencenorway.no/diseases-h...rways-healthcare-and-welfare-services/2268296
     
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  16. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    The study is discussed in forskning.no today.

    Dispute over Norwegian ME study.
    What does it actually show?


    The "dispute" is that proponents of a (bio)psychosocial model of the illness have critiqued the study. Only a recommendation for a view into the double standards on display.

    Criticism that is discussed:
    Criticism 1: Does not show whether the patients have become healthier or sicker
    Criticism 2: Contrary results from other studies
    Criticism 3: Unclear when the patients were in treatment
    Criticism 4: Benefit of a treatment is not the same as perceived health effect
    Criticism 5: Unclear presentation of the data
     
  17. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This article was quite a blow. :(
    I'm so sick and tired of the relentless PR work and lobbying of the BPS proponents.
     
  18. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    Does the translation using the term “rig” to describe how to design research reflect the original Norwegian in the quote of Helland. In English usage one meaning of to rig is to falsify eg to rig a vote.
     
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  19. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    No, that's just a bit imprecise translation. It means to construct something.
     
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  20. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    That said, the authors of the study have been accused of rigging the results due to selection bias, even if it is not done here.
     

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