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BPS attempts at psychologizing Long Covid

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic news - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by rvallee, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The Danish public broadcaster has an article about a Danish study on Long Covid published in the Lancet. It's a big study with 10 500 Danes that have tested positive for Covid-19. It concludes that few get severe long terms effects. But it seems they define severe long terms effects by whether the patient has started a new prescription based medication or have had contact with a hospital.

    Dr.dk: Har du været smittet med corona? Ganske få bliver ramt af alvorlige senfølger
    google translation: Have you been infected with Corona? Quite few are affected by severe late effects

    The Norwegian public broadcaster has the study and an article based on the Danish article as front page news right now with comments from a chief physician at the Department of Neurology at Oslo University Hospital and from a director from the Norwegian Institute for Public Health. At the end of the article it's a link to a recent podcast with Henrik Vogt talking about Long Covid.
    NRK: Gode nyheter for koronasmittede i fersk dansk studie
    google translation: Good news for corona infected in recent Danish study

    This is the study the articles refer to:
    The Lancet Post-acute effects of SARS-CoV-2 infection in individuals not requiring hospital admission: a Danish population-based cohort study Lars Christian Lund et al
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
    Invisible Woman, Andy, Wyva and 5 others like this.
  2. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Dr. Nisreen Alwan's comment to the study
     
  3. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A problem with "The vast majority with a mild course have no or few serious late effects." is that it's both true and completely sidesteps the issue.

    If only .001% of people who've had covid develop 'serious late effects', then given the number of people who've had covid, that is still a huge number of people they are saying can be totally ignored as inconsequential.

    and I suspect the number of people with long covid is orders of magnitude higher than .001%.

    I cannot of course prove this, as the same people who say things like "The vast majority with a mild course have no or few serious late effects." are the ones who control collection and release of the numbers.
     
  4. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    2,504
    Gyll and company recently got another one of their opinion pieces published, this time in the newspaper Uppsala Nya Tidning (UNT). It's part of an ongoing debate about the plans to open up a BPS long covid clinic in Uppsala later this year. It's behind a paywall, so I haven't been able to read it:

    Förslaget: Öppna postcovidmottagning i Uppsala
    https://unt.se/bli-prenumerant/artikel/rx1pm9yl

    Yesterday UNT published a reply to that piece, written by a pediatrician and an ob-gyn doctor:

    Långtidscovid får inte förminskas
    https://unt.se/bli-prenumerant/artikel/rg9e5xxj
     
  5. MEMarge

    MEMarge Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Post above uses Larun Cochrane Review as reference @Caroline Struthers . Another one to add to the list?
     
  6. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Again setting the standard at ICU. No ICU = no problem. Everything rated on that simple bit. And only diagnoses are considered, which is absurd. Utter foolishness.
     
  7. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    2,504
    Here's an excerpt from the original opinion piece, the one before the two articles I mentioned in my earlier post. It's written by the same people, the pediatrician and the ob-gyn doctor.
    ETA link to the S4ME thread about the long covid POTS study published by Bruchfeld et al.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  8. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A Swedish radio programme today, Monday 17 May at 12.09 pm/noon local time:

    Vetenskapsradion på djupet: Postcovid – därför bör det inte kallas kultursjukdom
    https://sverigesradio.se/avsnitt/1727018

     
    Kalliope, NelliePledge, Wonko and 2 others like this.
  9. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It's truly amazing how much oxygen is given to people who promote something akin to HIV denial. Based on absolutely nothing more than that they exist. By which criterion HIV deniers should be given public platforms as their existence is the same basis of a "controversy". There is no basis for any difference in treatment here.

    And of course the deniers turn this into a political debate, do not want science anywhere near the topic. Literally this is what this program above is, a fact-free debate over a scientific matter, which is a process that has never, NEVER, produced anything anywhere close to the truth. Whenever significant breakthroughs happened, not a damn person was anywhere close to the truth. This is exactly how none of this works, it's how science is stifled and progress choked out entirely. The very existence of such a debate is pointless and serves only to keep an unsustainable status quo alive, the only way it can be kept alive: by default.
     
    Sean, alktipping and Mithriel like this.
  10. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I haven't been able to listen to this myself yet (PEM), but others have already written excellent comments. For example this blog by "Immunitetsexperimentets offer" (a long hauler who has made a fantastic effort reading up on ME, yay!):

    Vem är egentligen kultursjuk?
    https://ensamladbedomning.blogspot.com/2021/05/vem-ar-egentligen-kultursjuk.html

    Google Translate, English

    Please do click through (to give the blogger encouragement through visitor stats!) and read the whole thing. ME, Wessely and Swedish BPS extremist Reimer are mentioned too.
    https://twitter.com/user/status/1394308553565954049
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
    EzzieD, alktipping, Trish and 4 others like this.
  11. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A Twitter thread about Vetenskapsradion På Djupet by the secretary of the Swedish Covid Association:

    https://twitter.com/user/status/1394277874887237635
     
    EzzieD, inox, Esther12 and 5 others like this.
  12. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Here's David Gyll (at 45 min 15 sek) speaking in English about "the XMRV trap and ME", "patients' narratives", and "Simon Wessely's great book about fatigue", among other things.

    It's a webinar on long covid from October 2020, by Svenska Läkaresällskapet ("the Swedish scientific professional organisation of the medical profession that promotes science, education, ethics and quality in health care. The award around SEK 35 million in research grants each year and rewards good medical research through scientific awards.")

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3maPHM0xWNQ



    (Was linked in one of the Twitter threads by "Immunitetexperimentets Offer".)
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  13. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    2,504
    Opinion piece in Aftonbladet today, written by a boardmember of the Swedish Covid Association.

    Tro mig – ingen vill ha långtidscovid frivilligt
    https://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/a/kR74LQ/tro-mig--ingen-vill-ha-langtidscovid-frivilligt

    Google Translate, English
     
  14. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a really good response, showing up the awfulness of accusing sick people of malingering.
     
  15. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Slightly off topic again, but still relevant. It's about harm/death caused by discrimination based on belief in "cultural illnesses". This took place in Sweden.

    Stroke bedömdes som ”kulturell svimning” – regionen fälls för diskriminering
    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vast/domen-stroke-kallades-kulturell-svimning

    ETA: Press release written by The Gothenburg District Court:

    https://www.domstol.se/nyheter/2021...ngsombudsmannen-och-vastra-gotalandsregionen/
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2021
  16. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A Swedish TV programme, tonight's episode was about long covid.

    Sverige Möts
    https://www.svtplay.se/video/30606346/sverige-mots/sverige-mots-sasong-2-2-juni-21-00?info=visa
    I haven't watched it myself, but I'm seeing comments about Mats Reimer (infamous BPS extremist) and Paul Garner, and so on.

    https://twitter.com/user/status/1400184409869987842

    ETA: https://twitter.com/user/status/1400191478199115779

     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
    Michelle, Andy, Sean and 3 others like this.
  17. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The interview with Paul Garner is towards the end and in English. He very exhausted and started believing that he would not get better because of the anxiety about the illness in society. Fed into his insecurity. But then he understood he could have some control over the symptoms by how he interpreted the feelings that were coming in.

    He had a shower, thought about some nice things, jumped on his bicycle to his fitness class and goodness he felt so much better! It evaporated. These things are absolutely real, but you have agency over the perception of it. Complains about the violent negative reaction to his recovery story.

    "Of course, the chronic fatigue/ME community believe that cognitive behaviour therapy is not helpful, and that exercise is not helpful. But the surprise really was the Long Covid Communities, particularly the Long Covid doctors who felt I was abandoning the cause and that I was leading to gaslighting, because I was saying it was in the head. And I was not saying it was in the head. I was saying that you can manage it by the way you think and with cognition. It's a balance between your body and your mind"

    Promises long covid patients that they will get better.

    starts at 46.48 minutes
    https://www.svtplay.se/video/306063...asong-2-2-juni-21-00?position=2806&id=KA2ZgMz
     
    Simbindi, Michelle, Andy and 7 others like this.
  18. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

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    How is that not in the head?
     
  19. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My best guess is that to them "all in the head" means imaginary, whereas curing illness by changing one's attitude to the symptoms doesn't mean imaginary, but rather changing physiology through the power of the mind.

    To those who don't believe that the mind has the power to change physiology, it's of course a claim that the illness was imaginary.
     
    Simbindi, Michelle, ukxmrv and 7 others like this.
  20. boolybooly

    boolybooly Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    504
    Is it too far fetched to believe there has been some kind of PR push in nordic countries from a hidden hand on behalf of the insurance agenda?

    Specifically Sweden and Norway.

    I just find the rash of antiscience propaganda from these places too frequent and concerted for it to be simply delusional handwaving.
     
    Kirsten, EzzieD, Simbindi and 10 others like this.

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