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BPS attempts at psychologizing #LongCovid

Discussion in 'Epidemics (including Covid-19)' started by rvallee, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    In the coming months, the BPS brigades will attempt to promote their alternative model to people suffering from post-COVID-19 illness. There will be papers and editorials, but also less formal attempts at promoting various treatment approaches and a "different" way to think about long COVID. Whereas the formal stuff will have their own threads, it's worth keeping tracks of those swings-and-a-miss, if only for the sheer entertainment value.

    I begin this thread because I found one in the wild and it went about as well as could be expected. Take a guess who went first, I think many will guess right.
     
    Atle, Squeezy, Michelle and 20 others like this.
  2. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes I think they will, but they've also been surprisingly quiet. Maybe this pandemic is also helping them understand how wrong they've been.
     
    Barry, ScottTriGuy, MEMarge and 2 others like this.
  3. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    And a wild Henrik appears

    (adding quotes since many will no doubt be blocked)






    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285677105209053184
    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285667897394835456
    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285668752554688515
    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285674159876579331
    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285678926069669888
    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285685713036615681
    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285686115022843905
    https://twitter.com/HenrikVogt/status/1285707817748398083
    What a jackass.
     
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  4. Joan Crawford

    Joan Crawford Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I echo this. I think they have been very quiet of late. It's making me wonder if the messages are getting through or if they are scheming away ready for a bit of a wee comeback. And from past performances I suspect likelihood favours the later rather sadly.

    Joan
     
    Atle, Squeezy, Michelle and 19 others like this.
  5. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Another doctor who gets it! I mean Trisha Greenhalgh of course.
     
  6. Grigor

    Grigor Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It sounds like he's panicking.
     
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  7. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Personally I think Vogt is best ignored. He's an LP proponent, not part of the mainstream BPS narrative who have influenced NICE, Cochrane etc.
     
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  8. Mike Dean

    Mike Dean Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    They're already under attack over GET:

    "The large number of patients experiencing post-viral fatigue after covid-19 has now shone a spotlight on the controversial technique again.

    Among this number is Paul Garner, professor of infectious disease at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine and director of the Centre for Evidence Synthesis in Global Health. Early in his recovery Garner realised that he was experiencing post-exertional malaise, as every time he did any exercise that increased his heart rate, such as cycling or yoga, he found himself back in bed.89

    Garner, who is coordinating editor of the Cochrane Infectious Diseases Group and one of the founders of the Cochrane Collaboration, said that he was “furious” when he read the 2007 NICE advice and the conclusions of the Cochrane review, which also support exercise therapy and mention uncertainty about the side effects of adaptive pacing.10

    “Obviously, I know that if I increase my exercise I will be thrown back to bed,” he said. “What I struggle with as a highly driven medic is stopping myself overdoing it. That’s what I need help with—I don’t need help to increase my exercise.” "​

    https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2912
     
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  9. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @rvallee I think you ought to tell us what you have against jackasses.
     
  10. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh Henrik! How can you be so insensitive to caution against taking patients too seriously, while they are figuratively screaming for help as loud as they can. And then follow up with a recommendation for a think yourself well in 3 days therapy.

    I don't know what's wrong with you but I hope it's nothing serious, and just an innocent lack of experience.
     
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  11. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Vogt can only continue to say what he does because he conflates a self-limiting though longer recovery from PVFS (a recovery that does not require any intervention) and ME/cfs which does NOT resolve with any treatment. He simply will not hear it.

    Perhaps there are people out there who have had PVFS and who recovered with no treatment?
     
  12. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Discussed here:
    https://www.s4me.info/threads/nice-...-context-of-covid-19.15870/page-4#post-275043
     
    Michelle, Woolie, alktipping and 3 others like this.
  13. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    https://twitter.com/maxwhd is finding interesting stuff on this and previously ME in general. It's a pity they don't post the stuff somewhere where it can be found easily as things can get lost or easily missed on Twitter.
     
  14. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I do know some, but one in particular got glandular fever in her late 40s. After seven months she was referred to a CFS service, as she just wasn't recovering. She went for one appointment, where she was given a CFS diagnosis; having known me for several years and learned a bit about the NHS approach, she decided not to make any more appointments.

    After another couple of months she began to improve, though, and within 11 months she was well enough to go back to work. This was in 2014 and she's never had any health problems since, so it looks as if she just had a particularly long-winded version of PVFS rather than ME. She was lucky in that they could manage on her husband's salary, so there was no pressure to resume her self-employed practice until she was ready.
     
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  15. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    As long as PACE was limited to patients with ME, they may have felt that they could handle the criticism, but now... Would they really want a big Covid-19 spotlight trained on the PACE trial?
     
  16. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    He's involved in the new LP trial in... Denmark? With Wyller? So very much part of the BPS brigade. He's a quack but just as much as the other quacks.

    And anyway the "official" BPS brigade has formally promoted the SMILE trial so they are very much in favor of the LP for ME.
     
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  17. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I mean that's pretty much most, as best we can tell. That's one of the things Wessely loves to laugh about, "they recover all on their own", which is equally true of a flu that lasts a week or a month, no reason why it would be different for longer term. It's also true of some cancers, though much less frequently.

    But that actually tells us something. Just as the massive difference in symptoms with COVID, not only the difference in symptom presentation but that some people have no symptoms at all. This is all relevant information that is simply hand-waved away.

    So yeah any silly thing will have people who "recover". Exact same thing as ancient remedies for the cold, you take it and it just goes away by magic. But that's tiger-repelling rock logic, it's juvenile nonsense.
     
  18. Aslaug

    Aslaug Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Norway is not the capital of Denmark (sorry, just an old saying that really fit here) ;)

    I belive Recovery Norge is also part of another study with Wyller, but I don't remember the name at the moment.
     
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  19. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    The fact Vogt is needing to go out and proactively engage like this on social media shows he’s non league level in terms of influence. The usual suspects won’t be using social media to influence key peers they’ll be speaking through professional channels, on the phone etc.
     
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  20. Aslaug

    Aslaug Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The problem, in Norway, is that having a patient organization as part of your study increases your chances of getting funding, and with Vogt being a doctor and something about ethics it gives credibility when researchers can point to collaboration with Recovery.
     
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