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Kupffer cells (interesting to see how spellchecker handles that!) get activated through various surface receptors for immune complexes, other material attached to complement, lipopolysaccharide on bacteria (CD14 complex), other toll-like receptor ligands and probably through cytokines like TNF...

Maybe we need a Dubbo brainstorming session. I should look t it again. I am a bit occupied with other things for a bit but then that is always the case!

Maybe we just have to find a pharmacological agent that blocks the negative signal specifically and show that it makes people suddenly feel fine, like the dopamine analogs do for Parkinson's or pyridostigmine for myasthenia. I doubt it would be that easy but even if there was a clear effect with...

I don't think we know the scatter pattern. All that was said was that only a tiny percentage had levels above the chosen normal range. Things get complicated here @chillier !! Inflammation is defined as an increase in vascular calibre, permeability to water and solutes and whitecell...

Something I think we may have not twigged to is that low level inflammation might be a risk factor for developing ME/CFS, just as acute infection is. So the diagram goes: Inflammation + ?? >>> ME/CFS Not ME/CFS >>> inflammation This is my central worry with the Beentjes paper.

Younger is showing CRP in mg/L. The normal controls are not a healthy population. Almost all should be below 3 and the majority below 2. We seem to be back to an indication that people with ME/CFS may have slightly raised CRP suggestive that there probably isn't any actual inflammation (if...

Younger's description of levels are reasonable. Except that for thirty years I worked with something more like. In mg/L <1 definitely no evidence of inflammation 1-2 probably OK 2-5 a little suspicious of inflammation but for many people can be taken as normal (note that the problem is that...

Or just celibate, so they don't get exhausted.:(

Two legs good then after all I guess.

Always happy to oblige.

I doubt these results mean anything at all. I like the comment 'particularly CD4 and CD8 T cells'. That is a bit like saying something affects 'particularly men and women'.

Do you know if that is mg/Litre or mg/decilitre? Both units have been used. I think everyone maybe going over to mg/Litre - which makes a level of 10 equal to the old level of 1.

Actually, the more one thinks of this the more complicated it may get. I remember in post EBV fatigue that I thought I could try stuff and then felt feeble and wretched if I did. With post Covid fatigue I just feel there is no way that I can try stuff. Moreover, if I do, I just feel more of the...

You are being very polite @rvallee. Are there some new forum rules ?;) This seems to be a muddle of opinionation and self-congratulation by some psychologophiles. The physician is pulling all sorts of rare stuff out of a top hat to impress the therapists, who are loving the love-in atmosphere...

It doesn't surprise me. I wish people wouldn't do science by X.

I guess that if you run clinics for people who have been given lots of diagnoses you will find that lots of them have lots of diagnoses.

Sorry @Simon, I miss things. Are you saying that you think there are two groups of PVF (inc post-Covid): 1. Similar to more typical fatigue, delayed or non-resolution of the initial fatigue? 2. And ME/CFS or similar? I am suggesting that most post-viral fatigue may not be ME/CFS - in that it...

We are talking about something right at the edge of what is considered normal in a test result that can go up more than 100 fold when it wants to. But coronary heart disease is known to be associated with this sort of borderline result for reasons that are not clear. Previous studies may have...

I had forgotten that. I have always regarded a CRP of more than 2 as potentially of note. 5 is unusual in completely healthy people. If the average for ME/CFS is 2 then it suggests something going on. The problem again is whether this is ME/CFS or some associated confounder. There is a...

The Beentjes study picked out CRP as statistically different in the ME/CFS group but only a tiny proportion of people (?4%) had CRP levels that would be considered clinically significant normally. I think there is a high likelihood of confounding with such a tiny number.