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Hey guys, people that are able to be physically active seem to respond normally to physical activity. What a shocker.

Seems like yet another review where they just repeat whatever is trending in abstracts.

There is an increase for post-covid patients, but that seems to be more related to covid than to ME/CFS.

So no control group? Once again, rehab practitioners demonstrate that they are unable to perform basic trials. This is no science, it’s ideology.

This seems to be disconnected from reality. Yes, every person will have a unique biology, but that doesn’t make diseases that are defined by their shared biology «unique» and «individual».

@jnmaciuch @Jonathan Edwards Thank you both - that’s vey helpful.

My position is that you’ll have a hard time arguing for consciousness as something that is not of the same realm as the biological, but that is a discussion for this thread (so we keep this one on track).

Thank you, that’s useful! Then I’m confused by why it’s called bystander, but that might be a language barrier thing. I guess the autoimmunity isn’t an intended effect of the immune activation due to the infection, but deviation from normality is just the definition of disease. Although I...

See Kitty’s response. And this debate for a lot of details about experimenting with treatments. It meets the bare minimum standards in a way that makes the data interpretable and reasonably reliable. Essentially avoiding all of the mistakes that can make it appear like there is something that...

Biological means physical. And because everything is physical, everything is biological.

I don’t understand how bystander autoimmunity would be a permissive factor, unless the bystander autoimmunity is self-perpetuating beyond the perfect storm moment, or it caused some kind of permanent regulatory change, but how would that happen from a bystander event?

Ooh, good point. I might have a hangover from the sleep meds. But I wouldn’t go without my tricyclics, because the pain also gets worse, my head is slower and I sleep less when not on them. Especially the pain seems to correlate heavily with the half-life curve, and got better when I upped the...

Thanks for explaining. Why would this problem persist then? I’m assuming autoimmune diseases are due to ongoing autoimmunity, and not just one-off damage from when you had an active infection?

Yeah, I could have been clearer. When I sleep, I compare how I felt e.g. at midnight and at 8AM so there is eight hours between the comparisons. When I’m awake I compare to the previous hour, so there is much less time for an improvement to happen which might make it seem smaller compared to...

I don’t understand what’s being proposed in a bystander hypothesis. Is it like a bystander casualty in a drive-by shooting? So the attacking immune cells miss and damage something else? If so, why would thay selectively miss and end up attacking certain kinds of tissue or molecules to create...

I usually feel quite bad when waking up, but when I have PEM the symptoms only really go substantially down during the night, but they can go up during the day. Maybe it’s just distortion because of the time jump that happens during sleep.

Is that another blow to the viral persistence hypothesis because it isn’t necessary to get continued ill health?

I think you’re missing the point of this study. It’s to assess the impact mass infections with covid had on the general public health, so you have to compare before and after covid became a factor. Your points about increased uncertainty are valid, but the model has already accounted for that...

The draft for public comments will be published late in January: https://www.me-foreningen.no/helsedirektoratets-nye-retningslinjer-kommer-pa-horing-i-slutten-av-januar/ It has been a bit of a black box for the outsiders, and I have no reason to be particularly optimistic. From the public...

Are you saying it wouldn’t get through peer review if they just said there is no evidence because the trials are too poor?