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The Mind-Body Syndrome Study (2019) Maroti et al

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic research - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by mango, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The Mind-Body Syndrome Study by Daniel Maroti and Robert Johansson at Karolinska Institutet in Sweden is currently recruiting. (This is not a recommendation!)

    It's an online treatment focused on emotions.

    It's called "MBS-studien" in Swedish.
    http://mbsstudien.se/

    More info about Maroti's previous ME/CFS research:
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniel_Maroti/
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    fossil, Atle, Cheshire and 16 others like this.
  2. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm sad to see that Bragée Rehab (home of Bragée ME-center) are endorsing this study. I wonder if they will be actively encouraging their ME patients to take part, besides this post on Facebook? This is a big worry because of Maroti's apparent lack of understanding of our disease, and his habit of supporting CBT/GET, PACE etc, which has caused lots of harm to pwME :(


     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    bobbler, Hutan, fossil and 14 others like this.
  3. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'd like to hear from them why they find emotions are so important to physical health. People have been having them for quite a long time. And what does it mean if you don't succumb to poor health, that your emotions are healthy? That's kind of self-evidently not true.

    Why has medicine become so goopy? And how much do we really know about emotions and what is emotionally healthy?

    In other words, I think this all sounds to me like social engineering. And not in a good way (if there is such a thing).

    ETA: word for clarity
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    bobbler, Atle, alktipping and 23 others like this.
  4. mango

    mango Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They talk about it a bit in some of their earlier ME/CFS studies, for example in their alexithymia study (full-text available here).

    They claim that "difficulties with emotional awareness in CFS have been related to lower self-reported social functioning" and that it "has been suggested that a lower capacity to recognize emotions can interfere with the ability to initiate and maintain social relationships", "has been found to have a negative impact on level of social support [...] as well as quality of relationships, which in themselves are a buffer against distress in chronic illnesses".

    Also this:
    For those of you who speak Swedish, here's another article that explains their view on whether emotions can make us ill (somatization).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    rvallee, Annamaria, inox and 6 others like this.
  5. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks @mango

    I don't have the wherewithal to read or comment further atm. Maybe later.
     
    shak8, Anna H, Annamaria and 3 others like this.
  6. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    What a big load of bull&*$t is. It makes me really mad.
     
  7. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    So are we emotionally dulled, or centrally sensitised?

    :confused:
     
    Hutan, Forbin, alktipping and 13 others like this.
  8. James Morris-Lent

    James Morris-Lent Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is some next-level drivel.
     
  9. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There ought to be a point at which such nonsense in the medical sphere becomes criminal.

    There is a difference between unsupported theory with an weak research base and just spouting nonsense. This definitely crosses the line.

    I accept people if they choose have, to some extent, the right to try out the snake oil, but the people providing it should be clear about that being all that is on offer and have a legal obligation to demonstrate it will not cause harm and to get a signed disclaimed from participants saying they have been told it is nonsense but they want to do it anyway.
     
    alktipping, Mij, rvallee and 9 others like this.
  10. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    God help anyone who is autistic and ill.
     
    alktipping, rvallee, rainy and 12 others like this.
  11. ladycatlover

    ladycatlover Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Weird, it appears to be written in the English language, but it appears to be meaningless. o_O
     
  12. BruceInOz

    BruceInOz Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Again it's inconceivable to them that the causation might go the other way. It's not having the energy that shuts down the social interactions, not the other way around.
     
    Forbin, alktipping, Mij and 14 others like this.
  13. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Andy likes this.
  14. Clementine

    Clementine Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Maroti is... Let's just say that he's responsible for this. It's written in Swedish but hopefully google translate is good enough.

    The short version is that a person he met in clinical settings showed symtoms of ME that he recognized but still decided that it was exhaustion syndrome, burnout. The person was tricked to do GET. He withheld information about that the clinical presentation pointed more to ME than a burnout and that GET could be harmful.

    https://funkisfeministen.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/hoppet-finns-i-okad-kunskap/
     
    ukxmrv, ladycatlover, inox and 5 others like this.
  15. Simbindi

    Simbindi Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Ha ha...when I was reading it I thought, 'Well that's me f***ed!
     
  16. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Let me fix that right here:
    There ya go.
    Might as well keep going:
    Let's see if we can move those curtains around a bit:
    There, much better. Own your god of the gaps, ya wankers.
     
    EzzieD, ukxmrv, alktipping and 2 others like this.
  17. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Unfalsifiable, so they'll never been proven wrong, as well as universal, so they can apply it whenever they want. Substitute for ghosts or demons for all that it matters, it's fully interchangeable.
     
  18. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Neat. They're using the fact that we have difficulty being coherent and expressing abstract thoughts as evidence that we have trouble experiencing them, rather than communicating. Which is something we constantly emphasize but if there's something you can count on with psychosomatic medicine it's reversing cause and effect.

    Also: WTH is "emotional awareness"? Oh, right, some made-up crap. As is tradition.

    Oh, the irony. This is so similar to someone who is colorblind inventing an elaborate explanation for why people who claim to see "colors that don't exist" believe those colors exist and they can't get around to the real explanation because if those colors were real they would obviously see them.

    The smallness of thought is excruciating.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    sous-bois, EzzieD, Sean and 4 others like this.
  19. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes. Both overly sensitized but also unable to experience them. We are also lazy overachievers and perfectionists who have trouble with completing things we started.

    Up is down. Those are not the droids you are looking for.
     
    EzzieD, Sean, mango and 3 others like this.
  20. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This isn't much different than the psychosocial model or FND. In fact, I can't really tell the difference. The normalization of pseudoscience has already been achieved so it's no surprise that the thing just metastasizes. And with stuff like the LP endorsed by the BMJ, all bets are off. Ghosts, demons, fairies, constellations, this, what's the difference?

    And since unblinded trials with self-reported outcomes that maximize bias within the trial, change primary outcomes entirely and lower pre-registered endpoints further have also been normalized, well, there will be a lot more of this crap. This was always the natural outcome, invite made-up nonsense to the table and it will glue itself to it like a barnacle.
     
    unicorn7, Mithriel, EzzieD and 4 others like this.

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