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The Lightning Process--what's it about? Discussing the theory & science

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Snowdrop, May 18, 2020.

  1. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There has been some ongoing discussion of the LP on other threads as it seems that this group would like to continue to try and validate as scientifically sound by continuing research efforts.

    In this thread I have compiled some information regarding the LP with citations to understand what the LP is from their own words.

    I also think that if anyone is up to the challenge another complementary thread could be created that explains and discusses the science (such as it might be) behind the HPA axis theory of illness. I cannot as I don't have anything to contribute there.
     
    DokaGirl, Caesar, MarcNotMark and 7 others like this.
  2. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I was scanning Phil Parker's website and a pattern emerged that I'd like to comment on.
    PP and others he's gathered to the fold have been continuously doing 'research' into illness and the efficacy of the LP for a number of years (about a decade) for poorly treated illnesses. As of 2018, there have been 12 trials of the LP.

    https://lightningprocess.com/research/

    Not all of which is research. Includes survey polls including from the ME Assoc. Also, the SMILE trial is included as validating research. For problems with the SMILE trial read here
    here
    The LP currently explicitly states as regards ME, that it is an ‘physiological’ illness.

    https://jep.ro/images/pdf/cuprins_reviste/82_art_2__v.pdf

    It’s not clear how to interpret this as all illness is physiological but perhaps this is a statement meant to assure those with ME that it is not perceived as ‘all in the head’.

    Some of the supporting research (from 2012) however is dated as it suggests:

    Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is characterized by debilitating but unexplained severe fatigue and associated symptoms, which are not the result of organic disease or on-going exertion and are not alleviated by rest (Fukuda et al., 1994).

    https://sci-hub.im/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.2044-8287.2012.02093.x

    None of this addresses what they think is perpetuating what they perceive to be the ongoing reasons for continued ill health.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
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  3. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The explanation for what is perpetuating symptoms is:

    There is general agreement (Edwards et al., 2016) concerning the importance in the disease process of the activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS), sensitisation of the Central Nervous System (CNS), dysregulation of immune and Hypothalamus Pituitary Axis (HPA) systems, and addressing issues within these systems are central to the LP model.

    https://jep.ro/images/pdf/cuprins_reviste/82_art_2__v.pdf

    The core hypothesis of the curative nature of the LP is:

    The hypothesis of the LP is that although the symptoms of the disease are precipitated by the original agent or incident, they are maintained by the aberrant ongoing response to that original event, which disrupts the usual process of recovery.

    https://jep.ro/images/pdf/cuprins_reviste/82_art_2__v.pdf

    It’s not clear what the LP practitioners think is the reason why some people who get sick also get stuck in an ‘aberrant ongoing response’. Is it genes, bad luck, personality? Whatever the reason for the continued aberrant response of the body this model (HPA axis) has a solution in the LP .

    So the ‘science’ of the LP is the HPA axis malfunction/changing the neural pathways model. It is referred to as the Physical Emergency Response (PER).
    What if you could learn to reset your body’s health systems back to normal by using the well-researched connection that exists between the brain and body? The Lightning Process applies well-evidenced scientific principles so that you can get back in charge of three very important processes in your body – The Physical Emergency Response (PER), Allostatic Load and Neuroplasticity; this page explores these concepts in more depth so that you can understand how the Lightning Process works to create and maintain change.

    https://lightningprocess.com/how-does-the-lightning-process-work/
     
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  4. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The LP is an evolving entity. There is the content of the treatment (what the clients are told about the LP and what it does/how it works) and also the delivery system (how the coaches deliver the information). With the LP both are seen as important to the effectiveness of the treatment.

    In the past, the LP, because it is proprietary treatment, was veiled in a lot of secrecy. Clients were required to not share their experience. This aspect of the delivery of the LP (2012) was seen as unhelpful:

    Less helpful aspects were the intensity and short duration of the treatment with little follow-up, the secrecy surrounding it, and feelings of being blamed if the treatment did not work.

    https://sci-hub.im/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.2044-8287.2012.02093.x

    It’s still unclear (at least I couldn’t find any info) on what the content is of the LP. What is know is that according to Phil Parker the LP treatment:

    Is a training programme that teaches you to change the way your nervous system controls your body.
    Its empowering tools involve gentle movement, meditation-like techniques and mental exercises.
    With practice you’ll learn how to switch on pathways which promote health and switch off ones which aren’t so good for you.
    https://lightningprocess.com/
     
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  5. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The health issues that the LP is meant to treat are:

    Do you know how it feels to…
    …be exhausted and tired no matter how much rest you get?
    …be stuck with re-occurring pain, health symptoms and issues?
    …get so stressed by almost everything?
    …feel low and upset much of the time?
    …want a better life and health but just can’t find anything that works?

    If any, or all, of these sound familiar then the Lightning Process, designed by Phil Parker, PhD, could be the answer that you’re looking for. There are lots of ways you can find out more about the suitability of the Lightning Process for you, have a look through below…
    https://lightningprocess.com/is-it-suitable-for-me/

    It is then suggested that you contact a coach to discuss if the LP will help you. Although you can come to the LP without ‘checking’ to see if it will benefit you suggesting a chat first with a coach to see if LP is right for you would constitute a screening process.
     
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  6. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The health issues that the LP is meant to treat are:

    Do you know how it feels to…
    …be exhausted and tired no matter how much rest you get?
    …be stuck with re-occurring pain, health symptoms and issues?
    …get so stressed by almost everything?
    …feel low and upset much of the time?
    …want a better life and health but just can’t find anything that works?

    If any, or all, of these sound familiar then the Lightning Process, designed by Phil Parker, PhD, could be the answer that you’re looking for. There are lots of ways you can find out more about the suitability of the Lightning Process for you, have a look through below…
    https://lightningprocess.com/is-it-suitable-for-me/

    It is then suggested that you contact a coach to discuss if the LP will help you. Although you can come to the LP without ‘checking’ to see if it will benefit you suggesting a chat first with a coach to see if LP is right for you would constitute a screening process.
     
    andypants likes this.
  7. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The core hypothesis of the curative nature of the LP is:

    There is general agreement (Edwards et al., 2016) concerning the importance in the disease process of the activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS), sensitisation of the Central Nervous System (CNS), dysregulation of immune and Hypothalamus Pituitary Axis (HPA) systems, and addressing issues within these systems are central to the LP model.

    The hypothesis of the LP is that although the symptoms of the disease are precipitated by the original agent or incident, they are maintained by the aberrant ongoing response to that original event, which disrupts the usual process of recovery.

    https://jep.ro/images/pdf/cuprins_reviste/82_art_2__v.pdf
     
    MEMarge likes this.
  8. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    At last, apologies if anything here is unclear or seems out of order.
    This was rather ambitious for me, although I think as mentioned more can be said about the HPA axis.

    I hope that this information might prove useful somehow.
     
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  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Note that if there is any general agreement it was not shared by Edwards et al 2016 or expressed by them (at least not as far as I can remember). I thought we had said that nobody knows but brain seems to be involved and maybe immune system - no more.
     
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  10. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Really all this says is that:

    although the symptoms are precipitated by what they are precipitated by they go on because they do not get better

    Deep stuff!
     
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  11. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm conflicted about this thread. It feels wrong to take LP too seriously. We might as well discuss how credible the emails from a certain nigerian prince are.
     
  12. alktipping

    alktipping Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    why waste your valuable energy on this con merchant . the lightning process is just the marketing of n p l surprising the people behind neuro linguistic programming have not pursued him for ripping them off . once the psyche lot have created controversy about a poorly researched disease it became open season for parasites to rip of the gullible and desperate patient groups .
     
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  13. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If the Nigerian Princes' were being taken seriously by others with the power to disseminate the NP nonsense then I think that people might feel the need to take what the NP's are saying, if not seriously then at least paying some attention to what they say in order to know how to refute it / expose it as not something believable.
     
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  14. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, I would have liked to go back and have a look at all of the original papers that were cited as I think that might be useful-- it's also a little beyond my capacities to do this-- at least in a timely way.
     
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  15. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    And that's what it seems to me after learning to think in a more probing way with regards to sciency statements. Lots of science words string together do not necessarily add up to a statement of science fact.

    While I know nothing on the subject I think science has sorted why when we put our hand on a hot pot we remove our hand in a reflexive manner. But I suspect that the HPA axis explanation for complex illness is quite superficial.

    Although I don't think I mentioned it in above posts when reading PP used language that suggested things were 'complex' -- not just the illness but the LP solution as well. Multifactorial was a word used. I think this kind of language is supposed to reassure the reader that if these things apply how can it not be science?
     
  16. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    What do you mean?!

    https://londonlovesbusiness.com/dealing-with-workplace-burnout-the-telltale-signs-and-prevention/

    Parker has clearly informed us that he is an internationally renowned health visionary and humanitarian. More importantly, 1999 was 18 years ago in 2017. 18 years!
     
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  17. Andy

    Andy Committee Member & Outreach

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    Isn't the problem with discussing LP the fact that nothing is officially revealed about the 'process', so it's impossible to scrutinise? Even in 'research' studies where it is used, there is no description of what happens - which obviously makes it impossible to independently replicate.
     
  18. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    What a find most odd here is Dr Flottorp's comment that LP has more than a placebo effect.
    As Knoop, White et al pointed out in 2008 (?2007) treatments like CBT and LP are actually designed to work as placebos. They are treatments that are supposed to work by the mode of presentation of the treatment altering the person's beliefs and feelings about their symptoms - as a placebo.

    Trying to maximise a placebo effect in this sense is a reasonable aim. My objection to use of placebos is the pretence that you are doing anything more than this and doing it in a dishonest way.

    But Dr Flottorp thinks there is more to LP than this. It is as if she is saying that it is not just black magic but real evidence based black magic. Essentially she seems to be admitting that she has been conned just like the patients.
    It is mind boggling that this sort of thinking should exist in a public health research institute.
     
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  19. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    LP seems to have occupied an inordinate amount of members' time and energy endlessly discussing what we all agree is a nonsensical and dangerous 'training' program based on very poor understanding of science and shoddy research.

    It is a pyramid selling scheme of a snake oil treatment to vulnerable people who are brainwashed and frightened into thinking the reason it doesn't work for them is because of their own inadequacies. Sadly it has also hoodwinked a surprising number of the medical establishment, despite them not actually knowing what goes on in this secretive cult.

    I do not in any way criticise individuals who say it has helped them. It may help some people suffering from health anxiety feel more in control of their health, and some people suffering from stresses to learn to learn some relaxation or other techniques they find helpful, but there is no evidence that it has any objective benefit on any physical illness and plenty of anecdotal evidence that it causes harm.

    Here are some of the many threads where it is discussed.


    Norway:

    Lightning Process study underway in Norway

    Norway: Opinion piece by prof. Saugstad: Give ME patients help that works

    A Messiah in the Norwegian health system? Lightning Process and the Norwegian medical establishment - Blogpost by Nina E. Steinkopf (2019)

    LP coach on research, Lightning Process and ME (Norway)


    UK SMILE trial - study of LP in children, including a selection of David Tuller's articles and talk:

    Smile Trial - Crawley Lightning process trial

    BMJ Archives of Diseases in Childhood: ''Editor’s note on correction to Crawley et al. (2018)'', 2019, Nick Brown. (SMILE LP Trial)

    Trial By Error: My Talk in Newry, Northern Ireland

    Statnews - BMJ should retract flawed research paper on chronic fatigue syndrome -STAT - David Tuller Dec 2019

    Trial By Error: An Open Letter to Dr Godlee about BMJ’s Ethically Bankrupt Actions

    David Tuller: Trial By Error: Time to Retract the LP Study; Letter to Archives of Disease in Childhood

    Trial By Error: The Lightning Process Is “Effective”? Really?

    Trial By Error: A Letter to Archives of Disease in Childhood

    Letter from parents of children with ME to paediatricians in the UK
    "Abuse of ME Patients by Health Care Professionals"

    David Tuller: Trial By Error: NICE's Consideration of the Lightning Process

    David Tuller: Trial By Error: Professor Crawley’s Bogus BuzzFeed Claims - 17th January 2018

    Buzzfeed News - A Controversial Therapy For ME Has Led To Claims Of Death Threats, Harassment, And Pseudoscience

    David Tuller, "Trial By Error: My Questions for the Science Media Centre"




    And more

    Lightning Process- is CFS/ME psychological or physical?

    Understanding the Lightning Process Approach to CFS/ME; a Review of the Disease Process and the Approach

    Positive Health Online: ME/CFS, NLP and the Lightning Process in the Looking Glass

    Thread in the members only forum here

    New ruling on Lightning Process from British Advertising Standards Authority

    Personal experiences of LP:

    Facebookpage: True Stories About Lightning Process (Critical)

    Interview with Joan McPartland

    Trial By Error: Joan McParland’s Lightning Process Experience (thread also includes other members experiences of LP also)
     
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  20. Cfs2222

    Cfs2222 Established Member

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    I’ve done it myself, it didn’t work, I managed to speak to him on YouTube of all places to ask why and he just said try again with another practictioner, he didn’t give a shit why it didn’t work he would probably blame me i suppose but there’s not way I was handing over naother £700 but that’s what he would have been hoping for
     
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