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Injecting Methylcobalamin

Discussion in 'Other: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; GcMAF' started by Little Bluestem, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. alicec

    alicec Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Please note that folic acid is not a natural form of folate and while we can convert it into a useable form, the process is not without problems.

    Folic acid is processed by the enzyme dihydrohydrofolate reductase (DHFR) in a two step reaction. First folic acid is converted to dihydrofolate (DHF), which is the natural substrate for the enzyme DHFR. Then, in the normal reaction for the enzyme, DHF is conveted to tetrahydrofolate (THF) which can then feed into the folate cycle.

    As this paper shows, DHFR processes folic acid about 1,300 times as slowly as its natural substrate DHF. Furthermore, there is an approximately 5 fold variation in activity of the enzyme among individuals.

    So everyone processes folic acid very slowly and some people do it extremely slowly. This means that even modest doses of folic acid can readily accumulate.

    As the paper shows, folic acid at even modest levels saturates the DHFR enzyme and inhibits its activity. This means that in the presence of folic acid, the natural substrate DHF accumulates. DHF in turn inhibits several other folate cycle enzymes, including MTHFR (which provides folate for B12 dependant methionine synthase) and thymidylate synthase.

    Thus accumulating folic acid can interfere in the wider folate cycle.

    The five-fold variation in natural DHFR activity means that the extent of interference will vary among individuals and of course, the higher the folic acid dose, the more likely interference will occur.

    So it seems wise to avoid folic acid and stick to natural folate supplements (methylfolate and/or folinic).

    The linked paper canvases reasons for the variable response to B12 among patients. One they don't consider is the capacity of folic acid to interfere in the folate cycle and hence in B12 dependant enzymes.
     
  2. alicec

    alicec Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Please note that folic acid is not a natural form of folate and while we can convert it into a useable form, the process is not without problems.

    Folic acid is processed by the enzyme dihydrohydrofolate reductase (DHFR) in a two step reaction. First folic acid is converted to dihydrofolate (DHF), which is the natural substrate for the enzyme DHFR. Then, in the normal reaction for the enzyme, DHF is conveted to tetrahydrofolate (THF) which can then feed into the folate cycle.

    As this paper shows, DHFR processes folic acid about 1,300 times as slowly as its natural substrate DHF. Furthermore, there is an approximately 5 fold variation in activity of the enzyme among individuals.

    So everyone processes folic acid very slowly and some people do it extremely slowly. This means that even modest doses of folic acid can readily accumulate.

    As the paper shows, folic acid at even modest levels saturates the DHFR enzyme and inhibits its activity. This means that in the presence of folic acid, the natural substrate DHF accumulates. DHF in turn inhibits several other folate cycle enzymes, including MTHFR (which provides folate for B12 dependant methionine synthase) and thymidylate synthase.

    Thus accumulating folic acid can interfere in the wider folate cycle.

    The five-fold variation in natural DHFR activity means that the extent of interference will vary among individuals and of course, the higher the folic acid dose, the more likely interference will occur.

    So it seems wise to avoid folic acid and stick to natural folate supplements (methylfolate and/or folinic).

    The linked paper canvases reasons for the variable response to B12 among patients. One they don't consider is the capacity of folic acid to interfere in the folate cycle and hence in B12 dependant enzymes.
     
  3. sea

    sea Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I haven't read the linked paper yet so this may already be covered in there. What you said about folic acid is what I was about to say about Cyanocobalamin. It is the synthetic form of the vitamin and it seems that some can convert it to usable form and others can't. That can be due to genetic differences.
     
    Bluesky and erin like this.
  4. Bluesky

    Bluesky Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    from what i am learning there is a link in all the tests and treatment with all things being balanced out. so yes there are some with genetic defaults so that they are not able to translate and absorb the folic and or b12. it quite complicated the relationship between the folic acid which can hide the b12 deficiency in the blood tests.

    @b12unme @b12info are both great sources of info and there is as i have said a great facebook group pagewhich has info on the balance of iron folic etc that are needed.

    eg to much b12 can lower potasium which can lead to another condition which leaves you weak muscles.

    for me taking the normal folic acid does not help but boods get better. false result. as that hides other problems.

    so i am taking both mtfhr and b12.

    i wonder that the gut problems with pwme dont allow for absortion and we are linked to leaky gut and that leads to other illnesses due to malabsorbtion

    it complicated
     
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  5. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :bag: I know that! I read somewhere that 2/3 of post-menopausal women cannot metabolize folic acid. What I should have said was most people take folate with B12. :asleep:
     
  6. erin

    erin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Ugh! Latest blood tests show very low B12 again. Everything else is very good for the first time; cholestrole is down to normal, other bloods OK everything is in normal limits. Except B12 and first time T4 is very slightly higher.

    Had my first 5 injections every day then this is my second weekly injection that first time it really hurt. I mean really burning, then I had diarrea. My already bad gastritis flare went worse.

    What's going on? Really fed up. Can not eat again, if I eat I feel soo full and bloated. And not eating is good at first but then acid starts churning. Couldn't sleep as I had to spent the night at the loo. Terrible.
     
    ladycatlover likes this.
  7. ladycatlover

    ladycatlover Moderator Staff Member

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    Sending hugs :hug: @erin. Sorry you're having all these problems. I had the full set of B12 shots summer before last. Was lucky, didn't have any side effects other than being knackered as it was a long drive to walk-in-clinic and then back again every 2 days for 2 weeks! At least it was a beautiful drive as we were on holiday in Wales.

    Thanks for the reminder - I haven't had any more injections for ages (I think they're trying to cut down on them in NHS) and I should prob ask for B12 testing again.

    Thinking about your feeling bloated and then having to sit on loo all night - sounds horrible. I think this is the sort of thing that definitely needs checking by a doctor. When I had something that sounds a bit similar it turned out I had diverticulitis, treated with antibiotics. Still have diverticular disease, but have med to help with that, and know now to go to doc if think I'm getting diverticulitis again. Please note my only med advice here is to see a doctor.

    Sending you some more hugs. :hug:
     
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  8. erin

    erin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you so much for the hugs and the advice @ladycatlover, I have intestinal problems though not sure about diverticulitis, a painful condition a friend of mine has it. I didn't know you have it too.
    I also have gastritis and it is flared -not going away. I know I need to see a specialist again probably; colonoscopy and endoscopy time again. I've been pretending that I'm a normal person recently, not going to dr's and maybe eating things that I shouldn't. I'm better today though done nothing in my pj's.
     
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  9. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sorry the B12 shots are causing you to feel sick. I have issues with my B12 getting low too and find supplementation via pill works just as well as injections without the hurt or distressing symptoms.
     
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  10. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Squeezy, I've just noticed you asked me a question two years ago and I never answered. So, I'm just a little bit late... My apologies. :D

    Adenosylcobalamin has several names - see the wiki article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosylcobalamin

    This is the adenosyl-B12 I took :

    Code:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Country-Life-Gluten-Dibencozide-Lozenges/dp/B000P9RLWG/ref=sr_1_3


    I was never happy with my choice because it contains folic acid, and I'd prefer to avoid that because I'd read this article :

    https://chriskresser.com/folate-vs-folic-acid/

    However, I couldn't find another product with adenosyl-B12 in it which had a generous dose.

    Eventually I gave up taking it altogether because it was rather too expensive for me.

    At the same time that I was taking the adenosyl-B12 I was also taking methyl-B12 5000mcg.

    I would alternate the adenosyl-B12 and the methyl-B12, I wouldn't take both on the same day.

    I had/have no particular preference for brand of B12 of any kind, as long as they get semi-decent reviews on Amazon or other sites. Price is a big dictator of which brands of supplement I buy, rather than quality, although I try to avoid supplements with lots of excipients and fillers.
     
  11. Squeezy

    Squeezy Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Arnie Pye :woot:

    And :hug:

    I totally forgot about it. Of course. Brain drain. Thanks for picking it up again. Very diligent of you :thumbsup:

    I'll look it over again and see if it warrants the expense... I find these days that few things do. I use the lemon flavoured Jarrow sublingual methyl B12s. Crunch them up a bit to speed them on, then let the littler bits dissolve under my tongue.

    My blood tests say they're working, and I don't fall over when I close my eyes anymore, (feet together, close eyes, you shouldn't topple), which the neurologist said was the big giveaway symptom.

    But a boost in energy, that people have talked about in another forum, has never happened to me in several years of B12 supplementation. Started with injections about 5 years ago, moved to tablets. Stopped tablets on doctors orders, levels drooped, restarted, levels up. Energy always rubbish.

    But then, there was a whole thread on another forum devoted to a daily injection regime that I shied away from.

    These days I'm too busy with life stuff to delve into the science of whether that makes any sense or not. Maybe I'm missing out, and that was my salvation. PWME. Missing out on life, but fearing missing out on a miracle.
     
  12. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I like this observation. So very true.

    I have confirmed B12 malabsorption, and inject myself. Since the deficiency symptoms were sorted out, I've never noticed an energy boost from my injections – I often feel unusually wiped out the day after.

    Whilst I was deficient, my energy levels were constantly flat. The pattern was noticeably different to the hour-by-hour variation in mild/moderate ME, which is what made me spend more than two years trying to fathom out what was wrong.
    (In hindsight it should have been pretty obvious, and fact it was to the only person who actually listened – the rheumatology nurse who was reviewing my DMARD drug.:rolleyes:)

    I do wonder if people who feel better after a course of injections were just low in B12 to start with.
     
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  13. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My active B12 and serum B12 are both well over the range, and I feel a bit better when I keep it like that. I have the same issue with falling over when my eyes are closed. And worst of all is trying to walk around in the dark or the semi-dark. Going for a pee in the middle of the night is horrible - I stagger all the way there and back because I prefer to keep the lights off. If I walk along poorly lit streets at night, or when I'm walking between street lights, I stagger all over the place then too. I did get a major (but temporary) reduction in my staggering when I had an operation in March, but sadly the benefits I got from it have dribbled away over the months since it was done. But it was amazing while it lasted - it improved my confidence immensely when I didn't stagger around everywhere and my walking speeded up a lot.

    As for the alleged boost of energy from B12 - I'm convinced its an urban myth. It's never happened to me.
     
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  14. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Me too! Mine started long before ME, and I think there are several possible causes. It might even be connected to my autism, I'm not sure.
     
    ladycatlover likes this.
  15. pangolin

    pangolin New Member

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    I have joined a Facebook group called Understanding B12 deficiency where members are recommended to get iodine, selenium and molybdenum up to a good level, one by one, only then add B2, and only then add B12 (injections or in oil that is absorbed through skin...) All very gradually. Don't know yet if it works, but the message in that group is that if you take B12 too soon, and the wrong type, will get nasty side effects... My daughter now at the stage where (after several months) we have ordered the B12... She has EDS and suspected POTS and Mcas, and paediatrician has said she has all the symptoms of ME. Just posting in case it helps someone - we don't know yet if it works ourselves...
     
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