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Emotion regulation and the salience network: a hypothetical integrative model of fibromyalgia, Margarida Pinto et al 2022

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Jaybee00, Dec 26, 2022.

  1. Jaybee00

    Jaybee00 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41584-022-00873-6

    Fibromyalgia is characterized by widespread pain, fatigue, sleep disturbances and other symptoms, and has a substantial socioeconomic impact. Current biomedical and psychosocial treatments are unsatisfactory for many patients, and treatment progress has been hindered by the lack of a clear understanding of the pathogenesis of fibromyalgia. We present here a model of fibromyalgia that integrates current psychosocial and neurophysiological observations. We propose that an imbalance in emotion regulation, reflected by an overactive ‘threat’ system and underactive ‘soothing’ system, might keep the ‘salience network’ (also known as the midcingulo-insular network) in continuous alert mode, and this hyperactivation, in conjunction with other mechanisms, contributes to fibromyalgia. This proposed integrative model, which we term the Fibromyalgia: Imbalance of Threat and Soothing Systems (FITSS) model, should be viewed as a working hypothesis with limited supporting evidence available. We hope, however, that this model will shed new light on existing psychosocial and biological observations, and inspire future research to address the many gaps in our knowledge about fibromyalgia, ultimately stimulating the development of novel therapeutic interventions.
     
  2. Jaybee00

    Jaybee00 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  3. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    I only have access to the abstract and that twitter thread, so I may have completely misunderstood this hypothesis. I would like to understand whether this is any different from central sensitisation, or the stress/ HPA axis hypotheses.
     
    Ariel, sebaaa, Michelle and 6 others like this.
  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It's the same crap about fear and emotions. It's presented as novel every single time. None of this junk will matter in the end. What does it even say about people who keep presenting the exact same idea over and over again who pretend it's all new? Do they not know? Not care? Can't tell the difference? What? How?!

    How of all things it's medicine, the profession that deals with life and death, that still believes in angels and fairies stuff?!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2022
  5. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not even a hypothesis, it's a model, random speculation. It's the same model as always. A hypothesis is testable, there is nothing to test here, this is just a bunch of the same old narratives, zero science involved.

    Seeing actual physicians with LC gush over this stuff explains a lot about why things are so broken. This stuff is basically magic, it tickles our fancy about supernatural powers and is so damn dangerous because people just can't resist it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2022
  6. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  7. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    Not even wrong.

    Shame on you, Nature. :thumbsdown:
     
  8. Charles B.

    Charles B. Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    At what point does this hypothesis, which is essentially a variation on general BPS theorizing, need to produce concrete evidence? It seems to always be in a provisional state, while simultaneously being widely acclaimed as sacrosanct. I wouldn’t believe medicine was this primitive if it weren’t happening to me, and that underscores the broader problem.
     
  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Indeed. 'Nature Reviews Rheumatology' - Perspectives
    It's ugly stuff, and very upfront about it. They conjecture that people with fibromyalgia are hysterical with their imbalanced emotional regulation system, and then call their model the FITSS model. (As in 'she's just having a bit of a hysterical fit'). It's at the same puerile level as those researchers in Sydney, part of Lloyd's team, who advertised for participants in a study with a poster saying 'Are women with CFS ovary-reacting?'. I don't understand how no one says 'umm, maybe this isn't a great idea?'.

    I'm going to list the authors and some of their affiliations because I think vague unevidenced witterings like this are pretty close to being hate speech. They certainly cause harm and they should not be honoured with being published in Nature Review. I find the international reach of the people who are happy to put their name to this stuff concerning. (Sorry, there are a lot of authors and even more affiliations... )

     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2022
  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    :trophy@
     
  11. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I looked on Pubmed for any research using: salient network and fibromyalgia and zero results.

    I looked up salient network and found this entry on ScienceDirect. It is concerned with Parkinson's Disease (PD).
    From the textbook:
    Cognition in Parkinson's Disease
    James F. Cavanagh, ... Sarah Pirio Richardson, in Progress in Brain Research, 2022


    "The salience network is primarily involved with orienting to surprising events, particularly if they demand the exertion of control. The orienting response is thought to act as an alarm bell of the need for cognitive control, helping to trigger the cascade of brain processes involved in adjusting to new demands (Fan, 2014; Wessel, 2018). The orienting response to novel stimuli is particularly compromised in PD (Kingstone et al., 2002; Poliakoff et al., 2003; Yamaguchi and Kobayashi, 1998; Zhou et al., 2012). An altered orienting response directly affects quality of life issues in patients by leading to distractibility (Sharpe, 1990)..."
     
    Michelle, alktipping, Hutan and 2 others like this.
  12. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It's pretty clear by now that no evidence is needed here. Evidence against even seems to reinforce beliefs, makes people dig their heels further. Which firmly makes it a belief system, and you can't reason with beliefs, especially when they've been tradition for this long. Acknowledging reality means acknowledging that millions of lives were bet on the dumbest what if imaginable.

    I don't know how we can fight that, bad ideas are the hardest thing to beat back, and then you add the inability to take responsibility for anything. It frankly seems like belief is growing with time, and medicine is on the verge of abandoning science because of it. They seem to think they're covered the science part, the rest is all hippy BS, except somehow far worse.
     
    Peter Trewhitt, Sean and alktipping like this.
  13. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    Remember the saying that you can't stop an idea whose time has come?

    Note that the saying doesn't mention anything about it being a good or bad idea.

    Bad ideas can be just as, if not more, resistant to being modified or abandoned.
     
    alktipping, Trish and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  14. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Because I was socialized into the field of healthcare, I tend to give researchers more benefit of the doubt than they deserve. And, I cannot do a peer review; I don't have the knowledge.

    Yet, on Science4me, most of the FM research articles posted are psychology departments who have their idiosyncratic take on hard science (salience network--self-soothing).

    They fluff it up to make their career-enhancing hypotheses in publications look rational and important.

    One thing is missing from the vast majority of FM research: the fact that the pain and other symptoms persist, hour after hour, day after day. Year after year.

    So blame the person with FM for...having FM and continuing to have FM, despite the fact that researchers say there is no effective treatment. No effective treatment at this point in time.

    How much mindful self-soothing can one do in a day, 16 hours worth?

    *Effective treatment consists primarily of a 60% reduction in pain in the majority of patients with tolerable and safe side effects.
     
  15. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Hypothetical model ignores many important pathophysiologic mechanisms in fibromyalgia, 2023, Clauw et al

    "We would like to respond to the Perspective article by Pinto et al. (Pinto, A. M. et al. Emotion regulation and the salience network: a hypothetical integrative model of fibromyalgia. Nat. Rev. Rheumatol. 19, 44–60 (2023))1. We feel that the proposed model severely overfits the complicated pathophysiology of fibromyalgia and is not applicable to all or even most individuals with this condition. We are concerned that this theory could inadvertently drive the field backwards despite several decades of research that has begun to illuminate neurobiological mechanisms underlying fibromyalgia and other chronic pain conditions. Our main points are outlined here.

    First and foremost, we disagree that psychological stress is the sole cause of fibromyalgia. It is inappropriate and invalidating to imply this is the predominant causal mechanism in fibromyalgia. Many individuals with fibromyalgia do not have a history of trauma, psychiatric comorbidity or even extraordinary stress. Thus, these individuals will not benefit from and may be harmed by this inaccurate and potentially stigmatizing conceptualization of fibromyalgia."

    Open access, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41584-023-00951-3
     
  16. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Reply to: Hypothetical model ignores many important pathophysiologic mechanisms in fibromyalgia, 2023, Pinto et al

    "In sum, we do not disagree with the substantive points in the correspondence from Clauw et al.1, but we do disagree with how our paper2 is summarized. We primarily aimed for a balanced paper and so invited the critical contribution of many authors with potentially different views. Consensus is often difficult to achieve, but we believe that engaging different views can both establish common ground and reveal areas where more scientific evidence is needed to resolve ambiguity. We are grateful that the paper, and this correspondence, enables us to further that goal."

    Open access, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41584-023-00952-2
     
  17. shak8

    shak8 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Glad that a well-known and respected FM researcher/MD of U of Michigan, Daniel Clauw, wrote this rebuttal.

    I hope he and his group will continue to counter the onslaught of "anxiety, depression, stress, adverse childhood events" trope posed in research articles as causes of FM.
     
    Joan Crawford, Sean, Wyva and 7 others like this.

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